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Slots At what point is the outcome of a bonus round decided?

Discussion in 'Slots' started by philculp, Jun 6, 2017.

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  1. philculp

    philculp Low-Roller

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    A lot of the video slots have bonus rounds that involve choosing 1 or a few of 10-20 objects on the screen and it displays a value behind it. I'm curious if the one that's actually chosen matters? It seems I'll choose and almost always get a low number and then when all the numbers are revealed it displays the one lucky one with extra picks or a high credit amount. Is the amount behind the object decided when they appear on the screen or after I choose? Just curiosity, hoping someone knows:)
     
  2. MiamiDave

    MiamiDave You Can't Handle the Truth

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    I can't say I know the answer to your question, but the fact that you choose the low one and not the lucky one is kind of the point. Without knowing which is which, you only have a small chance of picking the correct one.

    If I had to guess, and someone else will probably confirm, it's probably illegal for the slots to be made in a way that doesn't give you true random choice. By giving the illusion of choice when it's already determined what your reveal is going to be, it would probably violate some sort of regulated gaming laws.
     
  3. RibbonCat

    RibbonCat Low-Roller

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    Ive heard other slot players say that if all the amounts are revealed after you pick then your pick mattered. You could have won any of those. (I also always seem to pick the worst of whatever lol)

    If the amounts (under the ones you didnt pick) are not displayed after you pick - then it didnt matter what you picked, it was predetermined that you were going to win only that amount.

    Ive seen it in the rules of games of some games. I cant remember exact wording, but like "players choice does not determine outcome" or something like that.
     
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  4. seville

    seville Tourist

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    To my knowledge, the "choices" are predetermined. The slots are made to be random with the prize given out (there is a 10% chance to score x prize, 20% to score y prize etc - but it is determined by the computer algorithm before you begin "picking"). That's why jackpot rounds always end up with the minor prize "picked".
     
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  5. The Rumor

    The Rumor VIP Whale

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    This is generally correct. The bonus is predetermined.
     
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  6. romeocasido

    romeocasido High-Roller

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    House always wins. You lost the moment you put your money in...

    But to be more exact it's best to think of it as a computer program... To prevent any hacking the outcome of what's behind each box would be generated upon opening it. With probability outcomes being programmed for each click. So a random click can have a 60% chance off getting a small win, 30% chance of a normal win, and a 10% chance of a big one... Those were just hypotheticals. I sure the spread is larger and the percentages more exact

    I doubt they have pity timers though.... That's when a jackpot hasn't been hit in a while so the outcome of a jackpot will increase bit by bit. You call those players vultures. You see them sit and watch another slot player lose for along time and quickly grab their slot with the theory that it's "due"... nope. Doesn't work that way.
     
  7. flyguyfl

    flyguyfl VIP Whale

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    I concur as I asked this question on another forum after getting two of three needed for the top prize and the same situation for the second to top prize with the first four picks. I then got two of the minor prize. Of course I got the minor on the next pock.
     
  8. leo21

    leo21 VIP Whale

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    I've seen columns from gaming experts on this in the past. From what they gathered from the slot manufacturers, if the bonus round is a pick 'em, your picks determine the end result.
     
  9. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    In Nevada, either method is legal, and both are used to suit the game's needs.

    As mentioned earlier, if you have a pick screen AND the unpicked values are displayed at the end, this is generally a sign they are NOT predetermined.
     
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  10. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    "Predetermined" I think is starting to get defined differently by different posters.

    So for example at the start of the bonus round in Cleo II, you get presented with three symbols to choose from, that determines how many free spins you get in the bonus.

    Say you pick the left symbol and it displays 12, and then the others are revealed to be 8 in the middle and 10 on the right.

    The number under each symbol was predetermined in that, if you had picked the middle symbol, it still would have displayed 8, and if you chose the one on the right it still would have displayed 10.

    Your outcome was not predetermined, in that, it wasn't predetermined that you'd get a 12 no matter which symbol you touched.

    And then I guess there's a whole other question of how much is predetermined in a game where there are different layers/levels of bonuses. Going back to Cleo II, just my own experience is that in normal play, the bonus round triggers much less than once every 12 spins. But once you are into the bonus, I find re-triggers occur more frequently than that. It seems like way more than half of my bonus rounds re-trigger another set of free spins, and the highest number of free spins I've ever gotten was 12 or 14.

    So is every free spin actually run the same as a paid spin, or is a different probability schedule being used on the free spins, or is your total bonus win amount calculated when you choose the symbol at the very beginning, and then the software just makes it play out on the screen?
     
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  11. philculp

    philculp Low-Roller

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    I appreciate all the replies! What prompted my question was while playing Game of Thrones I made it to a bonus and got a 25x multiplier. I was able to pick a symbol and almost picked one and moved one to the right. I chose 60 credits, the one I skipped was 20000 credits ($5k with multiplier). So from what it sounds like if I had actually chosen the first one I'd be quite the winner because it was predetermined.

    Oh well, I'm sure the answers are going to make me overthink every choice now. It may have been easier believing that I would've gotten the 60 credits no matter what I clicked!
     
  12. LV_Bound

    LV_Bound VIP Whale

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    For the bonus rounds where you are choosing, your choices produce your outcome.
    This is true for those "pick" bonuses.
    The ones like U-Spin, the RNG stops once your spin.
     
  13. Grid

    Grid Well-Known Member

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    All of the Above USED to be true. But with modern day slots, sadly, it is not always true. It was never a law on the books (laws very by state) that showing you a credit amount on the other choices, you did not pick, means that your pick would have determined the win.

    There was an honor among the major slot manufactures at one time, and a basic set of rules were followed as to not confuse or anger players. One of them was to NOT show credit amounts under the other "pick" objects when the bonus was predetermined. I actually sat in a conference on this at G2E long ago. They were explaining the math in the new "Mummy" slot when this came up.

    But all of that is out the door now. Look at all of those Chinese themed knock off games with progressives. 12 coins are shown, there are 4 levels of progressives from $5K all the way down to $25 (or whatever). 3 coins that match gives you that progressive. But 95% of the bonus rounds end with the player "picking" the shittest 2 coins for $50 or $25, even though the odds "appear" to be 25% for ANY progressive. They have the balls to show you where the "good" coins were, even though if you had picked those, it would have still given you the shit win the RNG told it to.

    In years past, you'd pick dummy coins and win the mini and the machine wouldn't show you the major coins, since you couldn't have picked them in the predetermined bonus anyway.

    So at one time, it was a good rule. Now, they make it appear like you COULD have won a bigger prize, even though the RNG has already selected your win. Thats horseshit. But in all fairness, by law (again varies) they DO have to state in the games rules if a picking bonus is predetermined. So there is that. But who reads through pages of rules before they play LOL

    So like others have stated, it now all depends on the game. Usually the ones that are a fair pick, have dozens of tiles to select. That allows them to keep the math in favor of the machine.

    40 "stars" are shown. You need to match 3 to win one of 4 progressives. There are 20 stars for the lowest, 12 stars for the 2nd lowest 5 stars for the 2nd highest and 3 for the top award.

    So the math says you will pick 3 of the two worse ones (32 of the 40 stars will be for the lowest 2 awards). But since you still have a 3 in 40 shot of picking the top award, that award will be much smaller than it would be on the predetermined ones. It has to stay controlled somehow.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2017
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  14. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    I'm disappointed to hear this more recent turn of events. I hate misleading mechanisms.

    I'm also not a fan of the weighted bonus wheels either, but the slice has to be thick enough to fit in a number or a word like "Grand" in I suppose!
     
  15. Grid

    Grid Well-Known Member

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    You and I both! It is so bad now, with weighted bonuses, that the slot makers actual trumpet when they AREN'T screwing you! I had to dig this article out of my archives. A lot of the games AGS used to make were "fair" for the player. Very little predetermined, no huge wins but plenty of time on device. More often than not, the MIN bet could trigger all of the same features as the MAX bets. Liberty 7's was another great example.

    So where are all these machines now? Why don't you see their Roadrunner platform in casinos any more? They are only 3 years old, and most casinos in Vegas had them. Every one of my locals had them.

    Well, from what my friends in the casino world have told me, the rake just wasn't good enough for the casino. Most were popular titles, but not producing as much revenue as other machines (just too damn fair) so they were removed!

    “What You See Is What You Get.”

    “Our reel strips are not weighted, so each symbol appearing on the strips is equally likely to appear,” Vancura explains. “This is equally true in the base game and the free-spin round. As another example, during the ‘Sink the Ship’ feature, each available symbol is likely to be shot at and converted into a wild symbol. When the player picks objects, the outcome is not forced—the player’s choices dictate the awards.”

    In short, this is one of the most fair slot machines ever.

    This fairness to the player extends to the physical bonus wheel on the game—a first for AGS, by the way—on which each outcome is equally weighted. “Each stopping segment is equally likely to appear,” he says. “It is a fair wheel, which is very important to players. It is frustrating to have your wheel slow down and ‘always’ miss the top award to land on a dud. We’ve all experienced this. In Blackbeard’s Treasure, you are specifically rooting to land on one of the six Blackbeard segments, which are worth the most. And each of the Blackbeard segments is equally likely to land as any other segment.

    “So, the player actually has six times the chance of landing on the best wheel segment as any other segment.”

    Arguably, this may be the most fair video slot ever produced.

    http://www.casinocenter.com/a-pirates-life/
     
  16. nostresshere

    nostresshere Mr. Anti Debit Card

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    How about on Quick Hit. You select on the screen and get 5-20 free spins and maybe a multiplier.

    It appears that what you pick is not preselected. You just need to match three.

    But, does that actual outcome always the same? Meaning is 5 free games/spins going to get the same results at 20 free spins with a 3X multiplier based on a predetermined amount?

    And, are the re-triggers part of that SET win amount?

    Refresh of a Quick Hit Here
     
  17. Grid

    Grid Well-Known Member

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    I always wondered this myself! I don't think I have ever seen anything posted or spoken on how it works exactly.

    Does the RNG pick the number of games, and you touching tiles is just a show? I honestly seem to get the 20 games + 5 "wild" a lot.

    If the pick is fair, and you actually get to select tiles at random, does the RNG kick in during the bonus as to the amount of free games? IE the RNG has a bonus selected that would pay out over 20 free spins. You pick like shit and end up with 5. Would it then just retrigger within the free games 3 more times so you get the math outcome of 20 games?

    Does the RNG pick the amount you should win in the bonus game, and everything is 100% for show. The tiles selection, the spins et all. IE the RNG selected 25X your bet for the bonus. You pick 5 free games and those all have good hits and your total bonus is $75. You pick 20 free games, and they are sort of shit, and you end up with $75.

    I'd like to think its totally random for each step. The tiles selection, each spin in the free games being completely random ETC. But who knows.

    What I do know, is the bonus spins do pull from a different set of out comes then the standard base game. If you ever see a machine during a free spin bonus, usually somewhere it will say "Bonus Reel In Play" or something. Thats why it took you 150 spins to trigger the bonus, yet the bonus usually retriggers a couple times during the free spins.
     
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