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Table Games Why no face down doubling in blackjack at some casinos?

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by Llew, Jan 12, 2013.

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  1. numeno

    numeno VIP Whale

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    My experience is one of 3 things

    1) Very new dealer that doesn't want to screw up.
    2) Very strict pit boss
    3) Very rude/annoying patron which makes the dealer/pit boss just not want to deal with their requests.

    Every place I've had the option, I've also been told no on a different trip.
     
  2. Kickin

    Kickin Flea

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    I like getting my doubles face down as well and have never had the request denied when I remembered to ask. I think people have posted a lot of good reasons why they may have not allowed it which have nothing to do with company policy. Another reason may just be the table limit, the OP didn't post what that was but I'd imagine at lower limit games they'd be more likely not to allow it simply because it slows down the game a little bit and they need to deal those tables as fast as they can given the small margins.
     
  3. dodgydave

    dodgydave Tourist

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    I always have my double card face down when I play at Bellagio.
    The dealers do seem to ask the pit boss, but it always gets nodded through.
    There arn't many better feelings than seeing the dealer bust, and your 11 has turned into a 13 and you win double.
     
  4. Kagedawg

    Kagedawg Tourist

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    Agree. I prefer face down and have never had a problem in Vegas. However, at Horseshoe Cleveland, they would not do it on the main floor. However, they will do it in the HIgh Limit room. When I asked the pit boss, he just shrugged and said because that was the rule.
     
  5. seviay

    seviay High-Roller

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    I've played over 100 hours at MGM in the past year, and I still can't get a solid answer -- either from the dealer or from the pit critters. I've had dealers and pit bosses say they "absolutely cannot" do it, because of the cameras. An hour later, I'm in a different pit, and the dealer just has to announce to the pit boss that they're doing it face down. Naturally, the next night at that same pit, they say they "can't" do it face down. :vomit:

    If you figure it out, I'd love to know. My answer is that it depends on what you're betting, and it depends on the pit boss. I always get annoyed when I can do it at some tables within a casino and not others.
     
  6. JDinTN

    JDinTN MIA

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    That response from them is just a cop out. It has nothing to do with the cameras. A lot of games are dealt face down and the players actually touch and hold the cards. Baccarat, Pai Gow Poker, 3 Card Poker, all those types of games, and even in some blackjack games all the cards are dealt face down and players hold them. This is a situation where you want a card face down and you don't even get to touch it. Why would there be any security issue at all in doing this given there are so many games where players actually hold their cards?

    Its just a pit boss issue -- some are jerks and only want the game to move as fast as possible. I bet you the same pit boss that says no would be fine with it if you were betting 1000 per hand.
     
  7. y2mulder

    y2mulder Low-Roller

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    Its just a pit boss issue -- some are jerks and only want the game to move as fast as possible. I bet you the same pit boss that says no would be fine with it if you were betting 1000 per hand.
    -----------

    There is the absolute answer.

    95% of rules in a pit boil down to "simply keep a game moving". Dealers get tracked on hands per hour, and that little thing can chop it by 25%. At $1,000 per hand though, all the rules change.
     
  8. Erich17

    Erich17 It is a real Obsession

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    Not a great card reader but once the bet has been placed all you are doing is adding the cards for the next bet correct? If it is dealt face down by the end of the hand the casino always shows the card so you would be right back on your count before you place your next bet. This being said playing basic rules....Is the not correct?
     
  9. parlayboy

    parlayboy Tourist

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    If it put counters to a disadvantage then why wouldn't all casinos do it?

    No offense, but there are so very very few counters that such things are insignificant. I find it a little amusing when posters talk about counters as if they are some significant % of players.

    The real reason casinos will direct their dealers to deal them face up is to simply speed up the game a tad. The more hands they can deal the more $ the casino makes. So having to flip the DD card after the dealer's hand has been dealt is slightly slower than if they deal it up and can ( pre-count ) the hand quicker. It is a small thing but they often do little things for speed.


     
  10. blackjacker2

    blackjacker2 Never ever play 6:5, it is not blackjack

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    No offence taken, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I was just trying to say it could put someone at a disadvantage. For example, on a full table, let's say 60% of the deck has been dealt, 3 players or hands have had double down cards face down and a counter is sitting at third base, then the counter would be at a slight disadvantage in making their strategy decision without seeing those three cards. I think it is more likely as other people have said that the pit boss makes up the rules as they go along.

    I take your point, about the % of counters. They are certainly not swarming the casinos in any manner that people would have us believe.. I personally find it hard to witness someone playing decent basic strategy.

    This has been a good thread. I have enjoyed reading other peoples' views.

     
  11. WrongWayWade

    WrongWayWade VIP Whale

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    In actuality, if the counter could see those three cards or they are still down is ultimately going to make only the tiniest difference to him. First, if the count is soundly positive or negative at the time, the strategy play won't be changed by knowing those cards at all. Second, the player has to have a play decision that IS changed by the count (most hands do not). And third, if those three cards would change the strategy decision, he is on the borderline between the two possible plays anyway, and the cost of making the wrong decision is usually 1/10 of a percent or even a lot less. So dollar-wise, it is not really significant at all.

    Again, the vast majority of the gain that comes from counting is from larger bets when the count is plus, not by making some index play at the pivot point that is only worth a few pennies at most.
     
  12. blackjacker2

    blackjacker2 Never ever play 6:5, it is not blackjack

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    I agree, the bet size is the bigger factor, that is why I said slight disadvantage. I was originally trying to give a reason why casinos may not let you do it in the first place. Seems I opened a can of worms with the counter aspect, far more likely to be some local rule or particular pit boss ruling.

     
  13. Vladimir

    Vladimir Low-Roller

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    The Stratosphere often deals the double face down AND some dealers will even allow you to flip the card yourself (even on shoe games).

    I personally like having it dealt face down, particularly when I double 11 as I don't feel the instant dissapointment when I (almost always) draw an ace.
     
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