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What would you do and why?

Discussion in 'The Poker Room' started by AcesFull72, May 8, 2017.

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  1. AcesFull72

    AcesFull72 Tourist

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    A friend of mine sent me a hand that took place yesterday and I thought I would get some advice here. This hand took place in a $210 weekly multi table poker tournament. 8000 starting stack. 25min levels till 1st break (5 levels), 30 min levels after. Re-entry till the end of that break. Friend got there a bit late and missed the 1st level. So level 2 the blinds are 50/100. He just sat down and it was the 1st hand he was dealt. He is in the big blind. UTG and UTG+1 fold. UTG+2 raises to 400, also with an 8000 starting stack. Folds around to friend in BB and he looks down at AA. He re raises to 2000 and the UTG+2 calls. Flop KK6 rainbow. Friend checks and player shoves all in for 6000........What would you do and why?
     
  2. AcesFull72

    AcesFull72 Tourist

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    I forgot to mention that this was a player that he has never played against or seen before so he had no info to go on.
     
  3. BobLasVegas

    BobLasVegas Low-Roller

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    I WOULD DO J-LO, BECAUSE SHE IS SO HOT!

    oh...it was "what", not "who"....
     
  4. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    He already kind of decided what to do when he checked, didn't he?

    I mean, a check looks like a give up there. So either hero was leaving himself room to find a fold. Or he wanted to look weak to incite a bluff with a lower pocket pair.

    As played, I probably fold. Hero could well be ahead depending on the aggression of villain, as JJ or QQ could read the weakness in the check and look to make a bet only a K can call. Pre flop bet size has narrowed hero's change, and the check has indicated fear. But you can work with a 6k stack, a 20k stack is nice but doesn't lock you up into the money this early, and you can do nothing with 0k.

    Notes for earlier in the hand, I think the 3 bet was a bit big, especially 80 blinds deep against a bigger open raise. Should be more like 1k- 1200 (or even less). A size that leaves you post flop room, and that leaves room for an aggressive villain to 4 bet, letting you shove pre flop.

    But even with the big 3 bet, I think I lead out 2000 on that flop. Only 5 combos beat you, and as many as 12 or more (QQ, JJ) are behind and don't like that flop. I mean, you could still get re-raised all in, but that will almost never be a bluff, so it is a safer way to collect your chips when you are ahead, which you usually are.
     
  5. LvBlitzforce

    LvBlitzforce Low-Roller

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    make it way less pre with his re raise maybe 1.3 or 1.4ish, call it off.
     
  6. TuscaloosaJohnny

    TuscaloosaJohnny Low-Roller

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    Against an unknown opponent this is pretty much an insta-call. The check makes us look weaker than we are, and since the opponent doesn't know anything about us he's likely to value bet AK on a KK6 rainbow flop since the average player will muck here when facing a large bet. Seems he wants a fold so we should do the opposite.
     
  7. KKB

    KKB VIP Whale

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    Tournaments are about survival. You have NO information (problem with arriving late). You have no idea if the guy is tight, loose, smart or stupid.
    If you are fine walking away for your $210 buy in, or bucking it up again, call.
    Otherwise fold. Tournaments: better to lose a battle to win the war.

    Preflop raise was way too much. The call either means the other player is VERY strong or super loose (or an idiot)--BUT YOU DON'T KNOW.

    I agree that I continuation bet on the flop.
     
  8. NeonTurtle14

    NeonTurtle14 Hot Dogs and Buns

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    Agreed with Neyvn... as played, I believe the only choice here is to fold, unless your friend has some kind of strong read on the opponent in that short amount of time (nervous/shaking, fidgety, can see his veins in his neck bulging with heartbeat, looks like a hardcore criminal, I dont know...). Also as KKB stated, the tournament is about survival - another reason to fold in this spot.

    A smallish continuation bet after the flop (maybe 1300-1800 into the 4050 pot) should give your friend some kind of read on where they are based on the reaction of the villain. At that point if they decide to bail, they still have over half a stack, and a chance to catch back up. In all reality, as others have stated, the 3-bet to 2000 was too high pre-flop and gets your friend into this tough situation. My 3-bet would have been 1200-1400. I realize when you're in the battlefield, you don't always think so clearly, hindsight is 20/20, etc.
     
  9. AcesFull72

    AcesFull72 Tourist

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    I believe the preflop reraise was too big but that's beside the point. My thoughts on this hand were....when villain bets 400 preflop, he has pocket pairs 99-AA, AK-AJ suited. When he calls the 2000 out of position, I eliminated 99, AA & KK. I believe aces and kings shove preflop there. Depending on the player, possibly even AK in that $210 bi tournament shoves there if he's willing to call 2000, which is 1/4 of his stack. The 2000 reraise is something u do with JJ and u hope to take it down right there. Ok the flop comes KK6. When my friend checks the flop, it shows as a bit scared. Granted he could play AK that way too. When the villain shoves all in, I don't put him on AK anymore. I think most check there. What's he afraid of with the shove? At the very least, I think they would put in a tiny value bet. I think he is putting my friend on a one pair hand like 1010 or JJ and trying to get him to fold. That's just my opinion and I probably call putting him on AQ suited. Well my friend ends up folding....and the villain showed one card...an Ace!
     
  10. NeonTurtle14

    NeonTurtle14 Hot Dogs and Buns

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    I think Fold was the right move. He is either going all in on AK, the other AA, and im leaning towards AK (AA v AA would have gotten all in preflop with the quick format / chip stacks).
     
  11. booker

    booker VIP Whale

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    I came to this late. My first thought was if he bet so much, he should have just shoved and established a reputation as a maniac. After all, he has the second best possible hand preflop.

    That said, I think that I would have raised to about $1,200 and then make about the same bet as a continuation on the flop. That said, I agree that he should fold if he didn't bet post flop. It does seem that he basically gave up. BTW, I would have guessed the better had AK.
     
  12. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    Villain called in position, not out.

    As to your read, anything is possible, but you can make a lot of early exits assuming your opponent is flat bluffing all in at level 2.

    I also don't think you are necessarily right about how AK would play the flop. Hero has boxed himself in as a range heavy on high pocket pairs, with the bet and size. He could still be AK, but that is almost it unless he is a wildman. That means villain knows hero has a bluffcatcher hand, which may not like the flop, but may not want to get away. The aggressive shove to look like you are being a bully could actually be the BEST way for a value bet to get paid. This pot got so big so fast that villain has no guarantee hero will ever stab at the pot. Plus Villain doesn't want to play slow and see any broadway card come off if he has AK.

    Does not mean he DID have AK, but he easily could.


    I should add that calling 2k with AQ in level 2 would be a bit adventurous, especially unsuited. I mean, aside from QQx or KJT what is even a good flop for it to hit against a 3-better when the next bet or two decide your tournament?
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2017
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  13. georgesken

    georgesken Low-Roller

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    The way its played(which is horrible), this Seems an instacall for me. Why would villain shove a king there? He would valuebet or slowplay. This Seems like a big bluff to scare your friend out of the pot (not a good one, but it worked).
    This is A re-entry tournament so the way he played it he should always call there. If hes not willing to go broke there and rebuy , he shouldnt be in the tournament IMO.
     
  14. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    Why would a re-entry affect your decision? I mean, yeah, if you are short stacked early and highly likely to blind off early, you may get more aggressive.

    But a rebuy is basically just playing a whole new tournament. So losing here is still losing, rebuy or no. The notion of playing tight early in tournaments is not about variance (which would make it fine to ignore if you have a lot of opportunities), it is about equity.

    A good decision in a re-entry tournament should therefore be a good one in a non re-entry tournament.
     
  15. georgesken

    georgesken Low-Roller

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    The way he played it by overraising preflop and the way villain shoves there, this is anstacall to me because I think hes ahead most of the times in this situation. And if you are playing in a rebuy tournament without being able to rebuy without a thought , youre overplaying your bankroll and playing with scared money. In a rebuy tourney, when you think youre ahead during the rebuy period, you should be no doubt in your head to call this. At least I would...If villain leveled me here , so be it And I start over again. But I would never have played the hand this way in the first place.
     
  16. gebruiker

    gebruiker Low-Roller

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    >> Re-entry till the end of that break

    Pull out wallet, take out re-entry money and call.
     
  17. NeonTurtle14

    NeonTurtle14 Hot Dogs and Buns

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    When the point of the tournament is survival, and you're in such an uncertain spot, why would you not wait for a better spot to get it in? I love people who play with the mentality "I'll just call and rebuy if I lose it" - they make the worst plays early in the tournaments (most of the time). They could certainly have air - I am still waiting for a better spot.
     
  18. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    Scared money and smart money are not the same thing.

    Even if you CAN and WILL rebuy if busted, that doesn't mean you should make calls you would not make if a rebuy was not available. The rebuy should be irrelevant. You have $210 invested. That 210 becomes 0 if you are wrong. It does not become 420 if you are right (it does not become anything until the tournament if over).

    In fact, a person who needs a rebuy available to make a call they think is profitable is the one playing scared. Because they are implying they would shy from the correct play if they could NOT rebuy.
     
  19. georgesken

    georgesken Low-Roller

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    For me this is A good spot the way it played out. So I would call it cause I am pretty Sure I'm ahead (worst case villain also has AA imo). Making this shove here makes absolutely no sense if he would have hitted his K. So once more, for me its instacall in this spot (where he should never have been to begin with). Pretty sure he doubles up there and if not, rebuy.
     
  20. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    That part of the logic is fine (though I disagree as I explained above).

    I am just saying when you first argued it you made it sound like the call was ok because you can rebuy. And that should not be relevant to the decision.
     
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