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Table Games UTH - Email complaint to the casino - what will happen?

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by makuk, Dec 24, 2018.

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  1. makuk

    makuk Low-Roller

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    Rather than me explain what happened, I have posted below the email I sent to the casino (my host), I am waiting for a reply, what is your opinion? I don't think it is necessary to name the casino at present, I think it would be fair to wait for a response first.

    Hi xxxxxxxxxxx

    I hope you are well and looking forward to Christmas.

    I would like to thank you for the wine and gift you left us last week, this was greatly received.

    On another note, unfortunately, I have quite a serious issue that I need to raise with you and your floor supervisors with regards to the game: Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em, I was playing this yesterday and unfortunately the dealers and floor supervisors are unaware of the correct rules of this game.

    I played a hand where I had a the 2 of clubs (in my hand) and on the board were 4 additional clubs giving me a flush, however, I decided I did not want to Play the hand as I was confident that the dealer would have a higher club, in fact he did, I decided that as I had played the Trips bet I would just play the Trips bet where I would be paid 7 to 1 on my bet, the dealer (Named: Oz) then proceeded to tell me that I could not do this and called over a supervisor (Named: Joy) who also confirmed that I could not do this, they then told me that the only way I could get paid on my trips bet was to play the hand, I told them they were categorically wrong and I could just play the Trips bet, however, they would not let me and, therefore, I had to play the hand and pay an additional $50 to secure my trips bet (which I did not want to do), and as I assumed, I lost the hand but got paid on my trips bet, thus losing an additional $50 that I did not need to bet (see rules below).

    Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em is an international game with set rules that should be adhered to by all casinos across the world, the rules state the following:

    "A player who decides to fold shall place his/her cards face down on the table. The casino dealer shall then, in relation to each player who has folded:

    a. Collect the Ante wager, Blind wager, any Trips bonus wager (if the hand is not a three of a kind or better) on behalf of the player-dealer;
    b. Take the player's cards and individually spread out the cards, face down, and count them; and
    c. Place the cards in the discard rack."

    The rules clearly state a player may fold their hand but STILL get paid on their trips bet, however, your dealer and supervisor stated that I could not do this.

    Additionally within the rules it states:

    "If the player receives a three of a kind or higher, the Trips bonus payouts are made regardless of whether the hand wins, loses, or pushes. (NOTE: If the player has a three of a kind or better, the Trips wager always wins - even if the player folds.)"

    Again, confirming that a player may fold their hand but STILL get paid on their Trips bet.

    Finally within the rules it also states the following:

    "Procedures for dealing the cards from an automated dealing shoe:

    a. Notwithstanding any other provision of 205 CMR 146 or this chapter, a gaming licensee may, in its discretion, choose to have the cards used to play ultimate texas hold 'em dealt from an automated dealing shoe which dispenses cards in stacks of two cards, provided that the shoe, its location and the procedures for its use are approved by the Commission.

    b. If a gaming licensee chooses to have the cards dealt from an automated dealing shoe, the following requirements shall be observed:

    1. Once the procedures required by Section 4 have been completed, the cards shall be placed in the automated dealing shoe.

    2 The dealer shall then announce "No more bets" prior to the shoe dispensing any stacks of cards.

    c. The dealer shall deliver the first stack of two cards dispensed by the automated dealing shoe face down to the player farthest to his or her left who has placed wagers in accordance with Section 6. As the remaining stacks are dispensed to the dealer by the automated dealing shoe, the dealer shall, moving clockwise around the table, deliver a stack face down to each of the other players who has placed wagers in accordance with Section 6. The dealer shall then place a cover card on top of the dealer's stack of two cards in the automated dealing shoe and deliver the stack face down with the cover card on top to the area designated for the dealer's hand.

    d. After each stack of two cards has been dispensed and delivered in accordance with this subsection, the dealer shall remove the remaining cards from the automated dealing shoe and, following the procedures set forth in Section 8(b)(2)
    -(3), deal from his or her hand the five community cards in a manner as to not disclose the value of the cards in accordance with the provisions of Section 10.

    After all community cards have been dealt, the dealer shall, except as provided in (e) below, place the stub in the discard rack without exposing the cards"

    Currently, this is not how the cards are being dealt at the casino, they are currently being dealt the five community cards first instead of last as specified in the rules of the game.

    I am quite concerned by the above as I have played this game across the world and your casino is the only one that is not adhering to the correct rules and thus causes embarrassment and confusion at the table, could you please confirm if I need to forward this email onto anyone else and could you please refund me my $50 that I didn't need to bet!

    I look forward to hearing back from you.

    Kind regards
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  2. Eleven99isFine

    Eleven99isFine High-Roller

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    It's probably a "their house, their rules" situation, so be prepared for that.
     
    Xmas in Vegas !
  3. HJB

    HJB MIA

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    I think you will have as much luck as telling them that their black jack games only pay 6:5 for a black jack, don't allow DAS and hit all 17's.

    Those are not the right rules for blackjack either.
     
  4. LB9

    LB9 PH Blackjack Degen

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    I don't want to play lawyer here but regarding the rules you quoted above, the word "should" is pretty dispositive insofar as the casino does not have to adhere to the quoted rules. I feel for you, but I doubt you'll get refunded your $50. If the casino had to legally adhere to the rules per some Nevada statute, that would be different however.
     
  5. PartTimeDegen

    PartTimeDegen Low-Roller

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    They were both wrong of course. I've played UTH at many different casinos in different states. I wonder if they have to stick to the rules per the licensing agreement or if they are allowed to change them. I doubt they did though, just another example of dealers and pit bosses not knowing the rules (which can sometimes be to your benefit as I'm sure you know). Curious to see what their response is.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  6. GeorgeJ.

    GeorgeJ. High-Roller

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    I had a beef with the Flamingo maybe 9 or 10 years ago when playing their poker carny game; it was something other than UTH. Never had played it before; the bonuses were paid based on what your two cards were. I thought I was supposed to get paid a decent bonus (maybe $100) on my two cards on one hand but the dealer said no. I should have brought the pit boss over because the dealer didn't seem to know much about this game. He told me no over and over. When I left I picked up one of the brochures about the game that were at the table. After looking at this in my room it was obvious I got screwed on the bonus.
    I called the pit at the Flamingo from my room and happened to get the head of table games. He said he couldn't pay me the bonus I should have gotten because he had not been there and seen it at the table. But he offered me a $50 food comp at the Flamingo the next time I was in Vegas.
    I called 3 months later and he had moved next door to O'Sheas as casino manager or something similar. But he did take care of the comp for me and I had dinner at the steakhouse that was in the Flamingo at that time.
    I think that your host ought to do something for you if you too got screwed by a dumb-ass dealer. I have seen people who had a winning Trips bet but surrendered their hand because it would have been beat by the dealer and they WERE paid for the Trips winning bet.
     
  7. NewOrleansSlimm

    NewOrleansSlimm VIP Whale

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    I have encountered several times where the dealer doesnt know the complete rules for the game...one time after complaining the pit supervisor came over and originally sided with me and then quickly tells me, but the dealers have discretion to do what they want, basically hes telling me to go fuck myself...I walked away and called the GM and explained my side of the story, he said he would investigate it, the very next day he called me and we met near the diamond lounge. he told me I could file a complaint with the gaming commission and I had a good reason to although he said it may go nowhere at all...then he said weather you make a complaint or not, he gave me a bunch of promo chips to play with...


    as for your case, its 50/50, they can go back and talk to the pitboss and dealer and see if rules were not followed, review video and you may end up getting a few chips...the other side is they can just deny what you said as the cameras do not pic up audio

    story for this situation...playing rouleete, table is packed. everyone has money on #20 except for one guy, multiple chips per player...dealer spins the ball and we get a floater. sometimes they drop, sometimes they dont...at the exact time the dealer goes to grab the ball and he says "no spin" the ball drops in #20...obviously the guy is pissed cuz hes not on that number and wants a respin...he complained to the pitboss, they stopped the table for about 20 minutes while they reviewed the tapes. the dealer said "dont worry, yall are gonna get paid, the camera cant hear audio"...we got payed, lol
     
  8. makuk

    makuk Low-Roller

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    Update.......

    My host just replied to me (on Christmas day) and confirmed that she is back in to work on Thursday and will investigate my complaint further and get back to me.

    Just as an FYI, I don't really care about the $50, it's more about the principal and the fact that it could happen to me again and I don't want to me forced to play a hand when I don't need/have to.

    Thanks for the feedback, I will keep you all updated on this.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. TIMSPEED

    TIMSPEED The biggest Degenerate on VMB

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    I’m not going to say any more than..
    House rules...they only have to play the game as they feel correct..not how it’s originally intended.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. GeorgeJ.

    GeorgeJ. High-Roller

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    But they do have to play the game according to the rules they have set. I don't think that's necessarily the case where Makuk was playing. If they keep changing the rules depending upon which dealer is at the table and which pitboss is on duty, that's a problem. And gaming would probably be interested in that.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    Where was this?

    If it's Nevada it's definitely a "house rules" scenario. There are no detailed game rules written in the state regulations.

    And I wish casinos would follow the rules that the game's creator intended.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  12. jon_vegas

    jon_vegas High-Roller

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    The CET properties I've played in paid for trips even if you folded but just have to tell the dealer that you have a hand (open cards and tuck under trips bet). I think your dealer confused the trips bet with the bonus bet. The bonus bet only gets paid if you played the raise bet and beat the dealer with a 5 card hand. The pit boss should've also known this.
     
  13. Wallew

    Wallew VIP Whale

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    That’s how the house always wins

    Anyone who mostly plays table games knows that you have to correct a dealer more times than should be. Whether it be to confirm table rules or get the correct payout in chips for a win. Sometimes it is downright scary how little the dealer knows about the game they are dealing.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. JeJas

    JeJas VIP Whale

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    There are many, too many dealers and pit bosses don't know anything about their games.
    Just move on, and find the situations where the error is to player's advantage.
     
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  15. TIMSPEED

    TIMSPEED The biggest Degenerate on VMB

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    x2
     
  16. HJB

    HJB MIA

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    This is not "how the house always wins" at all. They don't have to cheat you to beat you.

    The odds are all clearly in the house's favor on every single game, and that is "how the house always wins."
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2018
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. The Rumor

    The Rumor VIP Whale

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    to be fair to some of the dealers, at a game like this, they may deal it rarely, and they have to remember it versus DJ Wild, Mississippi, 21, etc.
     
  18. DiamondD

    DiamondD High Roller in Training

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    Like at Luxor.....LOL. Last visit to Vegas a few weeks ago, either the dealer and pit boss were clueless or the Luxor is the only one with these roulette house rules. The had table minimums of $15 and the dealer was letting people put chips anywhere on the table to hit the minimum (combining inside and outside bets). I questioned her and she said those are the rules. Perfect, I and a buddy used that and walked away ahead by playing that way. I was concerned when the pit boss came to observe our bets, but he just walked away with dollars inside and dollars outside. It allowed for good wins inside and when not hitting inside, breaking even outside so it almost became a push. It was perfect for me. Crazy if those are really the rules there.
     
    Pre Christmas Trip
    New Orleans Edition
  19. KingBBInLV

    KingBBInLV High-Roller

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    Next time call the Nevada Gaming Commission, an agent will show up and make a decision. I've called them twice over the last 15 years and both times they ruled in my favor. One time a players club rep wouldn't activate freeplay on my account, the agent showed up, we both explained the situation and I got my freeplay. Another time I knew a machine at the Suncoast was paying under the Nevada minimum of 70% payback and an agent came out, looked up the whole machine history, locked up the machine and a few weeks later I got a letter in the mail telling me that the machine was in fact holding under 70% but they couldn't refund my money however the Suncoast received a hefty fine.
     
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  20. The Rumor

    The Rumor VIP Whale

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    I almost said this earlier: if you have a real dispute about rules, gaming is more likely to get to the bottom of it than the casino. A host can help, sure, but I thought I got mispaid and the pit says no, I’m going to gaming before I write a letter to the table games boss
     
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