1. Welcome to VegasMessageBoard
    It appears you are visiting our community as a guest.
    In order to view full-size images, participate in discussions, vote in polls, etc, you will need to Log in or Register.

Two Dozen Nights in Vegas: Down Town VP and beer.

Discussion in 'Vegas Trip Reports' started by wasilla, Oct 20, 2019.

  1. wasilla

    wasilla Low-Roller

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2017
    Messages:
    478
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    20
    This losing streak was a few years ago. I had been on a couple of year, can't lose, lucky streak and gave it all back during those 3 trips. I got 4 royals this trip and 7 this Summer. That's 11 over my last 7 weeks of play. Feels a lot better.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
  2. zignerlv

    zignerlv VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2006
    Messages:
    1,033
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    65
    Those round numbers are close enough to the actual exact figures. The benefit of using round numbers like this, with the ability to memorize and/or calculate the EV correctly and quickly, outweigh the downsides of using the 100% accurate to the tenth versions of those figures. Of course, Bob Dancer would take you to task for using such a "crude approach". ;-)

    I didn't get what you mean by this though.... "Add an extra $100 with your points and you have a +EV BP"
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
  3. palellama

    palellama Tourist

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    77
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    20
    I think he means that if the straight flush is paying $100 more than a non-progressive version of 8/5 BP, then after you add the points you get on your players card, the game is positive EV (99.17+0.8%+0.1%).
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. casinokid68

    casinokid68 VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Messages:
    1,451
    Location:
    brooklyn, ny
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    60
    Man, this feels like I'm back in high school in my math class. I thought gambling was supposed to be fun, relaxing entertainment, an escape from our everyday stressful lives, not so damn complicated, having to figure out percentages, formulas and all kinds of different shit, sitting with a notebook and pen and writing everything down. Sorry guys, I just always hated math :bang:
     
  5. palellama

    palellama Tourist

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    77
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    20
    I suspect the casino will still let you play, even if you don't want to do any math or figure out which games are low to no house edge! :haha:
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. casinokid68

    casinokid68 VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Messages:
    1,451
    Location:
    brooklyn, ny
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    60
    Honestly, I really don't care. I am out there on my vacation to drink and have some fun.I don't worry about house edges. It's a casino, I just want to chill and not think about who has the edge. As far as I'm concerned, the house always finds a way to take your money. I don't stress it while having fun!!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. wasilla

    wasilla Low-Roller

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2017
    Messages:
    478
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    20
    I think that it's a myth that the House is destined to take our money. I've now written 2 trip reports covering 7 weeks of play trying to illustrate that. Certainly it is getting harder and there are fewer casinos where you can expect to maintain a bankroll. The opportunities still exist though. I don't hole card, count cards, edge sort, dice control, vulture, sports bet, play poker, or have the math skills to exploit new side bets at table games. I also don't cheat. If I did a few of these well, I could probably maintain a bankroll on the strip. Since I only play VP as a tourist, I maintain a bankroll Down Town. It honestly is not that big of a deal. A number of locals actually make their living playing VP. I'm just talking about maintaining a bankroll. I've had fun losing money, but I don't prefer it. I also can't afford to lose hundreds and thousands of dollars trip after trip after trip. In order to win more than I lose, I've learned the basic strategy of the games I play, just as tens of thousands have done before me. I've also learned how to interpret pay tables and the value of progressives. The latter can be harder to find info on, so both my TR's tended to over report on them. I think it is more fun to win. If I were a pro, I'd have to play sober, alert, focused and with an advantage. I'm a recreational player though. If I'm drunk, having fun and winning, I play on. If someone interesting sits next to me, I play slower and with more mistakes. If I lose my edge, but still want to play, I play on until the losing actually starts. Since I keep records, it isn't a mystery when any of these counterproductive behaviors start costing me money.
    I have zero issues with anyone playing what they want to, how they want to. I've read Grids blog and how he gets these great, incredibly inexpensive Vegas vacations for small losses. It 100% makes sense to me. I also know that many people would never trade their Strip Suites and gourmet meals for my D Corner King and D Grill Cheese Steak. If I ever stayed in one of those suites or ate one of those meals, I might not trade it either. My claim is that someone can still go on comped Vegas vacations while maintaining their bankroll. That different people value different things is a given.
     
    • Like Like x 10
    • Love Love x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. zignerlv

    zignerlv VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2006
    Messages:
    1,033
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    65
    If you worded this as it is possible today to play break even or with a small edge, of course, then I'd be in total agreement. But, you said its a myth that they are "destined" to win. I can't agree. "Destined" to me does not require that 100% of the customers have to be losers, especially when the actual number is that over 99% of slot/vp/table game players are long term losers.

    When the games at the casinos are such that it takes hours of memorization of tables, limited choices of where to play, some of which are in places offering SIGNIFICANTLY less luxury than even the AVERAGE casino hotel, 10+ hours a day of play, at lightning speed, making 800 decisions an hour, to accumulate the $10k coin in to qualify for offers in low to mid end places, then yes, casinos are destined to win vs 99.9% (conservatively) of the population. Does that mean EVERYONE is going to lose? No. You will be one exception, but also talk to the people who win $10 million on a Megabucks machine. Are those people going to be lifetime winners at the casinos (yes, there will be one idiot that will give it back, but most won't). So just because there are a few winners, then casinos aren't destined to take customers money?

    To many/most people on this board, what you do and how you play, to them, is asking them to do the equivalent of standing on their heads to gain the slightest of edges at a handful of the dozens of casinos in town. (Ignore the dozen or two of your fans, me included) That's why they aren't interested in doing it. Out of the hundreds of VMB posters here, how many people have put in the time and effort that you have for this slight edge? The rest of the board is losing money to the casino, and many of them are aware of the existence of the games/machines that you play, but chose to not play them.

    That means, casinos are destined to win. That's why/how this multi billion dollar industry was built.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
  9. rob889

    rob889 High-Roller

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2011
    Messages:
    759
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    20
    Sorry if it's upside down
     

    Attached Files:

  10. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2013
    Messages:
    20,352
    Location:
    Chicagoland
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    22
    Casinos just let math and volume do the work. I feel like quite a few people don't believe that, but I do. As long as most people don't play with an edge, they'll be significantly ahead every month. I've looked at many different months of Missouri casino statistics. No was was close to a losing month. The top grossing casino in the state, Ameristar St. Charles, gets players to lose ~$20,000,000 a month, every month, and it's been that way for years, give or take a couple million.
     
  11. wasilla

    wasilla Low-Roller

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2017
    Messages:
    478
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    20
    Zig and Tring, Thank you both for following along and participating in this TR. I reread my couple of previous paragraphs and think they are well written. It is not a goal of mine to upend people's gambling preferences. I had hoped that people who read this would know that they had choices. I'm fine with someone playing DDB at BHB. I like the bar too. If they read this thread, they know that the DDB games are better at 4Q's or DTG, or that the BHB .25c JOB has a much higher EV than the $1 9/5 DDB. What people play is often based on preferences, but oftentimes people don't know the alternatives. I have no idea how many times I've read Tring advising people to play BP.

    What I do has no similarity to a Megabucks win. As stated, I play with a slight edge that is bolstered by some FP and promotions. It's something a lot of people do. I'm in no way special. I've just written trip reports. I should have already made a post summarizing the comps I used, but they don't require $10,000 a day. I do several $10,000+ days, but this isn't my average. QQQQ's has had promotions which has encouraged me to average over $10,000 daily over my last 4 stays there, but I only played $60,000 over 12 days at GG and The D. That's certainly more than a lot of people want to do, but it isn't formidable.

    To further clarify my point, yes casinos are going to win, but they don't have to win from you, me, or anyone else who takes the steps to maintain their bankroll. I realize that there will be exceptions where a person playing with a small edge and an otherwise adequate bankroll can be wiped out by horrible variance. Some others will hit huge jackpots. I'm just planning to still be in the game
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Like Like x 3
  12. GamblingGolfer

    GamblingGolfer High-Roller

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2011
    Messages:
    841
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    40
    Thanks, @wasilla, for a great, detailed ride that you took us along. Fascinating.

    Thanks, also, for the brew pub recommendation in Anchorage and Healey. We'll be staying in both in late May/early June. I'll wave as we pass Wasilla en route to the latter (and, again, on return to ANC).

    Cheers, GG.
     
  13. wasilla

    wasilla Low-Roller

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2017
    Messages:
    478
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    20
    Thanks GG. I was going to try talking you guys into sharing a beer when you passed through, but you're coming up when I'm back in Vegas. I know you'll have a great time.
     
  14. NittyOne

    NittyOne High-Roller

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2018
    Messages:
    549
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    8
    Wasilla sorry if I missed it but did you give a final tally of the numbers? Seems like a winning trip. I’d love to know the final tally based on your record keeping you probably have an hourly by game, by casino etc. if not send me the data. I work in operational planning have a background in engineering. I’ll spend a few minutes and I’ll pivot the shit outta your notebook data
     
  15. GamblingGolfer

    GamblingGolfer High-Roller

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2011
    Messages:
    841
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    40
    That's too bad (for us; good luck in Vegas). In case you change your plans, we're in Anchorage May 29/30, fly out on the 2nd (haven't booked yet, but that's the plan).

    GG
     
  16. wasilla

    wasilla Low-Roller

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2017
    Messages:
    478
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    20
    You haven't missed it. I promise to take you up on your offer, but using crappy casino pens, writing some entries in the dark, playing 5 different denominations, and including extraneous info that I wanted to remember for the TR, has made a tally more tedious than usual. I started yesterday when I was getting snow tires put on and finished a lot more this morning.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. NittyOne

    NittyOne High-Roller

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2018
    Messages:
    549
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    8
    Yeah I bet. I keep my stats in graded small notebook. In $, out $, time, casino, game. Makes rallying up much easier.
     
  18. 93 Octane

    93 Octane Chief bottle washer

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2016
    Messages:
    2,802
    Location:
    Mississippi
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    37
    Had no idea of the numerous craft bars so close to downtown (face palm) and appreciate your reviews of them. Planning on two trips next year and will definitely seek a few out. Not a big VP player but do love beer so your posts were quite helpful. Cheers!
     
  19. Bluekitty

    Bluekitty Tourist

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2013
    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Northern Kentucky
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    60
    Thanks wasilla for your enjoyable report. Could you guys give this simple girl a simple explanation how to calculate daily “coin in” - VP and slots? I know table games calcs probably don’t count.
     
  20. wasilla

    wasilla Low-Roller

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2017
    Messages:
    478
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    20
    Thank you Bluekitty. I don't play slots or table games. The general answer is that you divide the points you earned by the amount of dollars in required to earn a reward credit or tier credit. Some casinos make this easy, some make it hard, and some have different earning rates for their better VP. At the D or GG, you have to put $10 through VP per point. Boyd, for Sapphire and above, it requires $2 per point. Binion's and 4Q's is mostly $8 per point. I think that DTG is $2 per point for -EV games and $10 per point for + EV. I couldn't figure out how to see my points there, though, unless I busted or cashed out. El Co requires $1 per point below 99% EV and $3 above 99%. I'm a Downtown player, so my knowledge base is pretty narrow.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2019