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Tournament hand - short stack with KK

Discussion in 'The Poker Room' started by TRN, Mar 21, 2017.

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  1. NeonTurtle14

    NeonTurtle14 Hot Dogs and Buns

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    Tournament is $1100 "main event" in a series running regionally. There are 3x "Day 1" entry days. If you get knocked out one of those, you can only re-enter in a different "Day 1". (e.g. if you get knocked out during Day 1A, you can't re-enter until 1B and/or 1C). For these types of tournaments, I like to enter during the last Day 1 - I've just had better luck along the way with the larger field, softer play, people chasing the $ they lost in previous Day 1, etc. Whether or not there's any legitimacy to that theory, I stand by it :) Starting stack $25k, levels are 60 minutes.

    We are in level 10 which is the first level after the dinner break. Blinds are 800/1600/200. Before the break, I lost a big hand/pot (QQ lost to AK, board was AQ6TJ, and the other player was all in after the flop) and am down to around 18k chips (I had about 48k prior to that hand).

    Villain 1 is in BB position, and is a new player at the table, who must have gotten moved during the break. I have no hand history with him prior to this tournament, and know nothing about him. He appears late 20s or early 30s, wearing a ballcap and tshirt/jeans, and looks nondescript otherwise. He has about 30k chips.

    Villain 2 is in MP, an older woman (maybe in her 60s or older) who plays conservatively and has cashed in this room prior. If she makes it to showdown, she either wins or got sucked out on the river. She has about 40k chips.

    Hero is in CO, with what should be a pretty solid TAG image. Showdowns have really only been with strong premium hands, a few bluff reads never made it to showdown previously. Hero has 18k chips.

    Action folds to V2 who limps. Folds around to Hero who raises to 4000 with KdKs. Folds to V1/BB who calls. Folds back to V2 who looks like she wants to fold but noticed V1 is in the pot and acts like she reluctantly is calling now.

    Pot: 14,000

    Flop: Js Td 6d

    Board looks pretty good for a shove for my last 14k right?

    V1 overbets the pot - 20,000 (only leaves him 5-6k behind).
    V2 thinks about it, looks at her watch, makes a comment about MacGuyver coming on in an hour, and jams her stack in.

    Hero? Easy lay down? Time to get the rest of the chips in?
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
  2. mjames1229

    mjames1229 # of visits includes only trips w/ hotel stays

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    We could guess ranges all night long (my guess is V1 has middle pair and wants to get anyone and everyone off of a straight and flush draw). V2 might have the same read as me and might have a J or 10. But with 10 big blinds (and antes), and a chance to triple up, time to shove.

    Way different if this were a cash game or a tourney in which your stack is deeper, but now's the time to get the money in the middle. Beside the scenario that I think your top pair is good, you've got a shot to get runner-runner straight or flush.
     
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  3. 18000rpm

    18000rpm Low-Roller

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    V1 has a one-pair hand which you've got crushed. V2 has a set or minimum JT. I'd definitely fold.
     
  4. bribhoy

    bribhoy Low-Roller

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    First, you have 11 bigs, so jam pre. Slow playing just improves the chances of a suck out, and raising looks stronger so may fold out hands you want to get a call from.

    But, as played, here's my view.

    Pre-flop, you have no reads on V1, so the reverse is true. He has no reads on you OR V2. Your raise pre actually looks pretty strong, but he goes ahead and calls. If your read is right, and V2 wasn't Hollywooding on the pre-flop call, she is getting almost 5 to 1 on her call. JT is VERY possible here.

    Post-flop, V1's bet looks designed to get V2 to fold since without reads, he is going to flat-out assume she is a nit. V2 is now definitely Hollywooding. She has JT. Fold.

    So, just a long-winded way of saying exactly the same as 18000rpm!
     
  5. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    Yeah sounds like V2 is beating KK here.
     
  6. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    Honestly I am surprised you didn't shove pre-flop with 11 BBs left and 1 limper behind. You can talk yourself out of any board on the flop, and there are enough chips in there to get you a loose call to get your double. You played cute to get paid and ended up in this spot. To me, if I decide to play that route, I am pretty much assuming I am committed to the flop regardless of action.

    V1 could easily be trying to bully. He could also be any jack or a straight or flush draw.

    V2 could have any of (in order of likelihood) trips, AJ, top 2 pair. Slight chance of KQ suited or 89 suited, but you have 2 of the kings and 89 would be a bit loose for her stack and playstyle. Trips is by far the most likely for a limp and a call preflop from early position. But AJ you beat, and even top 2 pair you have 6 more outs to. I think we can dismiss Aces or Queens as even if she trapped pre-flop, I think she would have re-raised after a raise and a call.

    You are getting 3-1 on a call. But this is also a tournament. A won call puts you around 35 blinds, and able to play a little. A fold leaves you with fewer than 9 big blinds. 1 trip around the table will put you at 6. How good a hand are you going to get in that span? You could end up needing 3 doubles with a wide range, or a couple doubles and many steals to get up to the same position.

    Chances are very good that you are behind, and if it is trips, way behind. But I think you still have to call. You are in a tough position, but we should weigh your odds of cashing, not your odds of winning the hand. And if you back out of this pot, I think those odds go down.



    tl;dr, I agree with the read of the others, but not the conclusion.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2017
  7. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    If your read is JT for her and AJ or nothing for V1, the price is actually right for a call anyway. 32ish% chance of winning with 25% pot odds, It is only trips which are the backbreaker.

    The worst case scenario is she has trip jacks , and V1 has 89 of diamonds. Even then, kings win the pot 10% of the time
     
  8. fudgewapner

    fudgewapner Low-Roller

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    As others have said, it's a stack problem. I would have pushed pre-flop as well, and still pushed on that flop. You said you lost a big hand before the break, so you're all-in range might seem loose (more than it already does at 11bb) because maybe you're steaming a little, so maybe you get others coming along who want to build a decent stack..

    As someone said before you basically put yourself in the corner. Will you likely win the 3-way pot? No, but there's a chance, and you'll be in the dead zone shortly if you fold. Then you'll be pushing with J8 or similar hands and maybe still have 3-way pots as people try to knock you out.
     
  9. NeonTurtle14

    NeonTurtle14 Hot Dogs and Buns

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    Yeah I shouldn't have played it cute pre-flop, and just got them in. I saw the smaller raise as a way to double/triple(or more) up on the hand. But you are all right on that point. Had I been thinking about it more (I blame the fact I just got back from dinner) and realized I had 11 bigs Yeah I would have jammed them in.

    Pretty good reads all around here.

    Picking back up...

    Flop: Js Td 6d

    V1 overbets the pot - 20,000 (only leaves him 5-6k behind).
    V2 thinks about it, looks at her watch, makes a comment about MacGuyver coming on in an hour, and jams her stack in.
    Hero calls all-in for 14k.
    V1 calls for his last 5-6k and makes a comment "I should have just checked".

    V1 shows AJ
    V2 shows JT
    H shows KK

    Turn: 2

    River: 2

    Hero scoops main pot.
     
  10. mjames1229

    mjames1229 # of visits includes only trips w/ hotel stays

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    Not the suck-out I had expected to read about, but it kept you in action for awhile. Good call.
     
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  11. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    TRN, If you don't mind me asking, how do you take your poker notes on hands? What app, and how do you use it, when do you enter?

    On my weekend trip I downloaded the poker notes app thinking to start using it, as Caesars Windsor has several regs with varying styles, and except for the most infamous I thought notes would be handy. Also handy for recalling fuzzy details of hands (lol if you read my thread).

    But it also felt very structured for using on downtime at the table. Holding the phone landscape is a tad conspicous as is seating the players. It felt borderline rude. Honestly felt I could be more inconspicuous recording hands in a simple notepad app, and tracking known players and tendencies on a google sheet.
     
  12. The Rumor

    The Rumor VIP Whale

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    I would google that question at a poker forum, there are plenty of good responses to it.

    Most people come up with simple shorthand. You can use iphone notes.
     
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