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Thoughts on the play? It worked...

Discussion in 'The Poker Room' started by TRN, May 30, 2017.

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  1. NeonTurtle14

    NeonTurtle14 Hot Dogs and Buns

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    Here's a 1/3 NLHE hand from last night. I won the hand, and got all the guy's chips. Wondered if you would go at it a different direction or if you'd play it like I did.

    Hero and Villain both have about $400 stacks. Hero in Big Blind, Villain in Lojack. Villain is middle aged white guy, definitely a rec player but knows a few of the dealers by name, so not in unfamiliar territory. He beat me out of a good sized pot earlier when he hero-called my bluff, and probably sees me as a very LAG player.

    In this hand hero gets 78 offsuit, one raise preflop by villain to $10, and hero calls.

    Flop: K69 rainbow

    Hero checks, villain bets $15, hero calls.

    Turn: 5 (yahtzee!)

    Hero checks, villain bets $50, hero raises to $150, villain snap calls.

    River: A

    Hero shoves, villain thinks for a minute, makes the call. Hero takes down the pot, V never shows cards.

    This hand cripples villain (he has about $9 left after losing this hand) and he ends up busting out on his last $9 a few hands later and leaving.

    Do you agree with the play? Obviously I got really lucky playing what I did.
    - What do you think Villain had? A set? Two pair? AK? $10 pre-flop seems like a smallish bet for AK but maybe he was disguising his hand with a moderate size raise.
    - Would you have called the extra $7 preflop with 78 offsuit?
    - Would you have bet/played the other streets differently if you can get past the fact I called pre-flop with a crummy hand?
     
  2. XKxRome0ox

    XKxRome0ox Low-Roller

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    $10 is cheap to see the flop with 78 offsuit, especially when you are in the BB for $3
    and this is a cash game, not a tournament so no one is going to judge you for calling pre-flop
    $15 on the flop was a no brainer and a gift

    you said you tried to bluff him earlier and he called you down ...
    so the big raise on turn with the nuts was a great play
    plus by doing that, you've made the pot big enough and got the villain committed a lot more to be able to get the rest of his chips on the river

    perfect sequence for you
     
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  3. spicole

    spicole No shirt, no shoes... NO DICE!

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    That is a very loose pre-flop call.

    However... Given that call, I like everything else. Well played.
     
  4. La$Vega$

    La$Vega$ What happens in Vegas is put on VMB forever

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    WP, seems like he riveted 2pr and thought he was good. Well disguised hand.
     
  5. 93 Octane

    93 Octane Chief bottle washer

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    I think you played it correctly preflop flop turn river. Villain had you pegged as a nut job after calling your bluff.. the snap call on a raise is indicative of a weak player not thinking the hand through. He hit the Ace on river for a pair as he would have re-raised with AK on turn to prevent a cheap double gutshot draw..AQ is likely here
     
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  6. NeonTurtle14

    NeonTurtle14 Hot Dogs and Buns

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    So far only one who questioned the pre-flop call... figured I might get more slack about that one.

    I was definitely banking on the image the villain had of me from the hand I bluffed (and showed it instead of mucked when he called, I had 10-high and didnt even miss a draw). 93 is right he probably had me pegged as a nut job. I was playing a lot of hands (always do in 1/3 NLHE, especially when everyone limps in pre-flop) and am positive he had me pinned as an easy target. In all reality I am, in the 1/3 games (I'd like to think I play smarter in higher stakes) - just having fun and drinking beers when I play the 1/3 game.
     
  7. MiamiDave

    MiamiDave You Can't Handle the Truth

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    I think it's all good. Surprised he called your turn raise with 1p unless he really thought you were playing like a maniac. So many hands he's losing to, including a higher kicker on a king.

    It's ok to call small raises with 78 offsuit here and there when playing against a stack over 100BBs but you have to be willing to occasionally make that same turn play with air or on a semi-bluff if you're going to do so. If that turn was a 7 instead of a 5 you have to be willing to let it rip on a x/r sometimes as well as when you actually nailed the straight. Particularly with a tighter table image.
     
  8. carolineno

    carolineno VIP Whale

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    Do you agree with the play? Obviously I got really lucky playing what I did.
    - What do you think Villain had? A set? Two pair? AK? $10 pre-flop seems like a smallish bet for AK but maybe he was disguising his hand with a moderate size raise.

    2 pair or a set of fives maybe.

    - Would you have called the extra $7 preflop with 78 offsuit?

    Yes, I'll play things in the BB I wouldn't normally, I'm smart that way :goofy: I'm pretty disciplined about folding when I miss so

    - Would you have bet/played the other streets differently if you can get past the fact I called pre-flop with a crummy hand?

    I was surprised he didn't fold to the check-raise. He must have been hoping to fill up I guess? No idea why he called the all-in, maybe he wasn't thinking at that point. Being honest ( and since you seem interested in the thought process of us not-as-good-as-you players :D) I doubt I would have checked the turn, poker players are usually aggro enough with a female, so it probably would have been bet-raise-shove.
     
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  9. NeonTurtle14

    NeonTurtle14 Hot Dogs and Buns

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    I am thinking he either had AK or a low set (55 / 66 type hand) based on his play (e.g. raise preflop, snap call my c/r on the turn, eventual call of my all in bet on the river).

    Or maybe he was rocking something like KJ or KQ and just thought his pair of Kings was good since my table image was very LAG.
     
  10. kps

    kps High-Roller

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    Definitely would have bet the extra $7 to see the flop and then go from there. Looking at how he was betting post flop it was basically a pot bet post flop and also on the turn until you check raise him if my math is correct with them snap calling the check raise.

    I can't see someone calling a check raise, even if they think you are a LAG on the turn unless they feel they are extremely strong. So my thought is they have a set of 6's or 9's which can explain the small raise pre flop.
     
  11. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    - What do you think Villain had? A set? Two pair? AK? $10 pre-flop seems like a smallish bet for AK but maybe he was disguising his hand with a moderate size raise.

    I think it has to be AK. To call both your raise and the river. Other king high hands or medium pockets could call your raise, but the second overcard should fold them out. So unless he is overplaying A9 because he thinks your raise is a bluff, not much else makes sense. It could be a set, but they are rarer, and may have 3 bet the turn.

    As the turn the 4th suit? If it put a second suited card out, AQ or AJ suited with a bdfd are possible, but even then I'd say unlikely.

    Could also be AA.

    - Would you have called the extra $7 preflop with 78 offsuit?

    Probably not. You get 2-1 on the call, but you are out of position against a lojack raiser (likely has a hand), who has hero called once (so you can't easily win the pot unless this is the best hand). Its not the worst play in the world, but if you make it, you are playing to flop 2 pair or hit a flop/turn straight and win a big pot, because you'll have to give up fast a lot of the rest of the time.

    Your table image also makes it less likely villain would be raising your blind with a marginal hand. And could in fact explain a lower price than you were expecting for a premium one.

    - Would you have bet/played the other streets differently if you can get past the fact I called pre-flop with a crummy hand?

    No, I think out of position you played it well. No reason to semi bluff the flop, and you aren't folding $15 to a guy who will clearly pay off the straight. On the turn your hand is disguised, and out of position there is not much merit to a call. Its time to hope he has a king and punish him, and you did it well.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2017
  12. vetsen

    vetsen Low-Roller

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    I think your stacks were deep enough to call $7. You don't have to felt him all that often for that to be a good price.

    I'm wondering if the A on the river helped get you a call by making him more convinced you were bluffing.
     
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  13. Shipppp09

    Shipppp09 Low-Roller

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    Think your giving him way too much credit by thinking he had a set. Don't think he takes nearly as long to call on the river with 5s or 6s. I actually think he could have had a hand like KQ or KJ. With your C/R on the turn what kind of Ax do you have that hit the river? You'd be suprized how differently people play when they've seen you play one hand spewy.

    People also love to show everyone how 'unlucky' they've been so if villian did flop a set only to lose to the monster that is 78o, I think you probably would have heard about it haha
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2017
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  14. bigalbr

    bigalbr VIP Whale

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    Just to make you happy OP, the preflop call was awful. If you play 78o headsup OOP 50 times versus a preflop raiser you're going to be down.

    The rest looks fine. You definitely need to give him the opportunity to get it all in when you have such a well concealed nut hand.
     
  15. MiamiDave

    MiamiDave You Can't Handle the Truth

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    If you're going all-in with it sure, otherwise that's completely wrong.

    Granted, you shouldn't be making that play all the time either. With deep enough stacks and a decent price, your implied odds can be very favorable. The majority of any villain's range is going to miss the average flop, so you can only play 78o heads-up if you're a flop player willing to x/r air or a semi-bluff occasionally. Table image is important as well as far as which post-flop line you take. In this case, the hero's image was loose/spewey, so if he missed the board he needed to be very careful not to get too aggressive.

    The keys to making 78o profitable vs. anything outside of top 5 hands is to maximize your opponent's folding equity when you miss (when they miss, too) and to maximize your winnings when you hit (since you're likely to be very concealed). There's no middle ground with a hand like this.
     
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  16. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    Right, but in addition to hero's own image, villain has proven sticky with marginal holdings, and middle aged rec players often have tight raising ranges, but wide limp ranges. That is my main issue with the call.
     
  17. MiamiDave

    MiamiDave You Can't Handle the Truth

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    I can't say I've done the math, but I think with pre-flop odds, implied odds and stack sizes here, that it can be +EV to flop 1/2 pair, 1 pair with straight draw, a straight or an open-ended straight and still have good odds to call a flop bet and improve on the turn.

    In any case, I think one of the biggest issues with live poker advice in today's declining poker market is that the bad players are still bad but the average players have gotten better. You can't hope to be profitable in today's game if you're only calling top 40 hands when getting 2:1 OOP from the BB. You have to be a really good post-flop player with marginal hands. If your post-flop game is weak you really need to concentrate more and more on table selection.
     
  18. NeonTurtle14

    NeonTurtle14 Hot Dogs and Buns

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    There's a lot more intelligent thought about the play here than is probably deserved in a 1/2 or 1/3 game. I was drinking, I think Villain was drinking, pretty sure half the 1/3 players were drinking. Not blitzed drunk, but having a fun weekend evening at the card table with a beer.

    That said, when I play 1/3 on the weekends, I tend to loosen up more than I would in a 2/5+ cash game or tournament of any size. I know I'm not alone. Most 1/3 players aren't pros or taking the game as seriously as they could, and that's OK for the game right? I expect my AA to get cracked by a hand like J8 or 45 in a 1/3 game (and then laugh about how bad Aces are preflop :)). When that happens in a bigger stakes game or tournament, I'm generally more perplexed or upset about it having happened to me.

    By the time this hand came around, my stack had been as high as $1200, then down as low as $120, and was just making a hail mary move (in my mind) to get some of the winnings back and leave with a profit. In a 1/3 game for a weekend rec player with a beer in hand, leaving -180 is the same as leaving -300... might as well try to make something of it. I got lucky.

    I can't be alone in the way I played this one... (enter philosophical discussion about playing for profit vs fun - it is possible to mix those up between sessions).
     
  19. MiamiDave

    MiamiDave You Can't Handle the Truth

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    The intelligent stuff is fun!

    Btw, a random K_X hand vs. 78o is 61% equity.

    A top 10% hand vs. 78o is 70% equity.

    Even against a top 10% hand, you can often make any two cards work, with strong post-flop play. Chance of AK, AQ, KQ hitting a card on the flop is only 32%. The reason post-flop aggression is rewarded in NLH is because the majority of hands miss the flop.
     
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  20. NeonTurtle14

    NeonTurtle14 Hot Dogs and Buns

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    I'm sure that's what the beer was telling me!!!! ;)
     
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