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Table Games Tell me your experiences playing Ultimate Texas Holdem

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by rycelover, Oct 12, 2016.

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  1. yube baroke

    yube baroke Tourist

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    There are still a few places that aren’t concerned with sharing info, as it really is not that huge of a deal, compared to the dealer flashing the board cards and/or their own cards. Barona in SoCal has a chipless table and deals all players cards face up. Venetian/Palazzo lets you play 2 hands, where one is dealt face up...essentially allowing half the players hands be exposed if 3 people sat down and played 2 hands each.
     
  2. cg123

    cg123 Low-Roller

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    Just played for the first time at Hollywood Casino in Columbus. $5 table. Was a lot of fun! Big swings, but enjoyable. Didn't play the progressive or trips bet. One hand saw 5 out of 6 of us have a full house and the 6th guy had quads! That was cool! Will definitely add this game to my regular rotation.
     
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  3. Curt

    Curt Tourist

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    Hey guys thanks for all the info. Always wanted to play UTH but never did. Before last trip I learned about VP on this site now UTH. Played around on wizzardofodds.com to see how the game is played, seems pretty simple just hope I get lucky. Really just a craps guy but I love 3-card, vp, and now maybe UTH. Wish me luck.
     
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  4. sqd49

    sqd49 Tourist

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    hi guys, i'm a total noob to this game. I read the wizard of odds strategy and according to him his strategy yields a house edge of 2.43%. Has anyone played this game and used solely his strategy can you let me know how well you did? I would love to follow the wizard's strategy as it is much more easier to understand. I also come across discountgamblings' strategy that yield a 2.3% house edge, but that strategy is really complicated and I don't understand a lot of that.

    Also I play at the wizard website and I come across a hand as follow:
    Ace and 10; I checked (I know I should have 4x)
    The flop and river: 5,6,K,7,9 all nonsuite ( I also checked the flop)
    The advice from the game website told me to "Fold"...instead of call.

    I wonder why did the website told me to "Fold"? I thought the rule of 21 counts those 5 board cards as 15 so I'm supposed to Call, right? Unless the game website indicates that there are four 3s, four 4s, four 8s, three 10s out there that will make the straight (which is not part of the wizard's strategy)

    I hope to be able to play this game live at Barona in the next few months, thanks for any advise gentlemen.
     
  5. topcard

    topcard Vegas Has Re-Opened!

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    Yes - you should call that hand...of course, you should have 4x that hand!
    The simulator at the Wizard's site does glitch from time to time, especially on the post-flop, pre-river bet.
    I've had it tell me to check when I had two-pair after the flop.
    It also has told me to fold when there were fewer than 20 outs.
    I just ignore it's "advice" when I know it's wrong.
    By the way - you should read a bit further on that 2.43% house edge - Shackleford explains that the more important number in UTH is the "element of risk" - which is under 0.6%, making the game comparable to many 3:2 blackjack games.
     
  6. sqd49

    sqd49 Tourist

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    Ah, I see. the glitch. Yes, I see the element of risk, but when we play we have to bet 4.15 units on average, which in the end of a single hand, we will lose at least 2.18% per bet because the game doesn't allow us to bet one unit, but we have to bet on average 4.15 units don't you think?

    the swing of this game is terrifying. Last night I played at the wizard's site and I think I played more than 1000 rounds with $5/unit. When I stopped playing I was down about $800. I was up about $100 at most and then my bankroll kept decreasing. I played exactly as the wizard instructs. Regarding the win-loss ratio anytime I 4x, I think I edged out a bit so I guess it makes sense that we have to 4x as the strategy tells us.

    how do you play this game at the casino topcard? Do you have a special strategy that is different than what the wizard mentions?
     
  7. topcard

    topcard Vegas Has Re-Opened!

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    Nope...I pretty much stick to strategy... abut the only time I stray is on the 21-outs rule, when there's no pair on the board...I will often stretch that to 22 & 23 outs - since, if there ends up being no dealer pair but the dealer beats me, I effectively get my $5 back from the call, since the ante is a push.

    As for bet amounts?
    I usually start with $10-$10 (& $5 on Trips).
    If I get my ass kicked early, I back that down to 5-5-5... and if I'm still struggling after doing that a while, I stop playing the trips bet.
    My objective is to double my buy in ($200). If I do that, I color-out & go play blackjack for a while... if I hit something good (like a full-house), and get to, say, $260 up, I'll keep playing with the $60 & protect the $200 win... if I turn the $60 into another $100, same deal - color-up & go.
     
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  8. topcard

    topcard Vegas Has Re-Opened!

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    Actually, no...what Shackleford is saying is that you will, on average, lose 2.18% of your ante alone, per dollar, per hand - since you are betting more than your ante (4 times as much), it's still only 2.18% of each dollar of your ante bet.
    Look at it this way. It's 2.18/4.15...0.53%...
    So... for easy math, let's say you have $10 ante & $10 blind... since, on average, you also bet an additional $26 or so, we'll call it $45/hand.
    $45 x 0.53% = 24-cents per hand.
    $10 x 2.18% = 22-cents per hand... so, your giving up basically the same dollar amount in house edge, but it's much lower percentage.... that's why he makes the point that 'element of risk' is more meaningful than the house edge, when looking at UTH compared to, say, blackjack or craps.
     
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  9. sqd49

    sqd49 Tourist

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    Nice reasoning, I'll keep that in mind when I come across scenario like that.
     
  10. The Rumor

    The Rumor VIP Whale

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    FYI, you're supposed to count the four 8's as cards that beat you. You aren't behind 15 cards - you are behind 19 cards. Yes, the simple rule does say to call still, but it's a lot closer to a fold than you were thinking.

    The computer, IIRC, is calculating something more complicated than the simple rule. It's taking your true odds into account. It's accounting for the fact that 34 can beat you, and that they can have some pocket pairs.

    This type of hand is why the simple rule has a house edge of ~2.4% on the base bet but theoretically optimal play puts you closer to a ~2.2% hold. You have to be making mistakes somewhere.
     
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  11. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    Using the wizard's calculator, i got a "call" for that hand. Maybe you accidentally added a four flush board?

    In terms of loss per hand, I think it is just easier to use the overall house edge times the ante bet size. I've never been a fan of "element of risk".

    $10 BJ with 0.6% house edge: $10/hand x 0.6% = $0.06/hand.

    $10 UTH: $10 ante/hand x 2.185%/ante = $0.2185/hand

    $10 3CP: $10 ante/hand x 3.37%/ante = $0.337/hand

    $10 craps: $10 pass bet / outcome x 1.41%/ pass bet = $0.141 / outcome
     
  12. sqd49

    sqd49 Tourist

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    tringlomane, I remember for sure that it was not a flush board.

    gentlemen, do you know if barona casino still let you make just the trips bet. considering the low house edge of less than half a percent, I might try to just do the trips bet and skip the ante and blind bet.
     
  13. yube baroke

    yube baroke Tourist

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    I would never forgive myself if I got a Royal.
     
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  14. mistax

    mistax Tourist

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    It should be a Call or 4x preflop. It's 15 on board + 4 8's possible for the straight which is only 19 out of 21. If it was an opened ended straight then you would fold as it would be 23.
     
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  15. topcard

    topcard Vegas Has Re-Opened!

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    tring...I get what you're saying, but I do buy into the 'element of risk' being more meaningful than the HA.
    The reason - unlike blackjack - is that you will always have more money out there when you decide to call - whenever you decide to call - 4x, 2x or 1x.
    Shackleford says that your average total bet is about 4x the ante...which sounds very believable to me.
    So, your 22-cents per hand on a $10 ante is actually 22-cents on an average $40 bet... 0.55%
     
  16. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    Yes, it's a fairer way to judge how competitive a game is for sure. But since most players structure their bet as multiples of the ante bet, I just think it's simpler to calculate expected loss per hand by calculating house edge x amount wagered on the ante.
     
  17. rycelover

    rycelover High-Roller

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    I count more than 21 outs... 15 outs for making a pair, then four 8’s to make a straight, and three Aces, four Queens and four Jacks. His Ace-Q or A-J out-kicks your A-10.
     
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  18. The Rumor

    The Rumor VIP Whale

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    eh, that's not how you count "outs" for the 21 outs rule
     
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  19. yube baroke

    yube baroke Tourist

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    I can’t explain why the Wizard calculated it as a fold, but I personally would have folded with that board, had I not 4x’d it to begin with. My reasoning is the combination of a non-paired board also having a middle sequence of cards that eat up a large chunk of safe cards. Most Ace hands will beat you, so theoretically you could probably assign partial points to the aces if you wanted stick to the out system. Below are the only hands you can beat. Since the dealer doesn’t qualify, I ignored the dealer A-10’s for a push. In this scenario, just always go 4x to start and you will never have to deal with tricky river calls lol.

    A-4’s
    A-3’s
    A-2’s
    Q-J’s
    Q-10’s
    Q-4’s
    Q-3’s
    Q-2’s
    J-10’s
    J-4’s
    J-3’s
    J-2’s
    10-4’s
    10-3’s
    10-2’s
    4-2’s
    3-2’s
     
  20. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    How did you see the dealer's Ace in the hole? Advanced play! :wink2:
     
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