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Table Games Pit bosses icing the shooter at the craps table

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by Outkastgamer, Jul 6, 2020.

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  1. Travel Fanatic

    Travel Fanatic The Arbiter of Taste Caviar Kid

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    I know the Wynn used to force dealers to share tips with supervisors, but they stopped that policy a couple years ago. I am not sure if any place is requiring it presently
     
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  2. mbely1000

    mbely1000 Low-Roller

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    Fun story but the premise of your question is not based on math or logic. There is no bad luck or good luck. There is no machine that is due to hit. There is just math and in the end, it doesn't matter what the casino employees do, the casino will always win.

    But I understand. When I lose I want someone to blame. Be it the rude pit boss or the guy with his hand over the table or the guy who can't seem to hit the back wall....EVER. What we forget is the many times that those things happen and we end up winning.
     
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  3. Outkastgamer

    Outkastgamer MIA

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    Most pit bosses don’t get any tips. They usually have a base salary. If the dealer is told by the pit boss to ice the craps table, most dealers are going to listen to keep their job in my opinion. The casino only wants to lose but so much money.

    The gamblers they have been playing craps for many years have witnessed pit bosses icing the craps table. Frank Scoblete and the dominator books talks about this issue.

    Hopefully more veteran craps players will share other experiences about this issue.
     
  4. Travel Fanatic

    Travel Fanatic The Arbiter of Taste Caviar Kid

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    Yeah, but just because they write about it doesn't make it true (FS can sell a lot more books with an invented "captain" of craps rather than just being honest and acknowledging that there is a house edge on every roll). Just think about it logically. Even in your original example, your friend rolled for almost an hour. What was he doing differently, or what was different about the environment, that made it possible for him to roll so long without a seven out? Then, how does the supervisor inspecting the dice, even for as long a time as a few minutes, change (or "ice") the way your friend was rolling? Did your friend have some special rolling technique that he decided to abandon because the supervisor held the dice? Why in the world would he do that if his special technique had worked so well for an hour! What if the supervisor had only held the dice for ten seconds rather than a couple minutes? How would that have made things different? I could go on, but I'm really not trying to pile on here. It just doesn't make sense and the idea that a shooter is being "iced" is just one aspect of the often prevalent gambler's fallacy
     
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  5. AyDee

    AyDee is getting too old for this

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    Just would like to point out that the phrasing of the question is "TRYING."

    IMO maybe it's an old school thing, I've had boxmen, I've thanked for being cool through whole winning runs.

    also probably much more likely at low limit grindy joints than the strip.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2020
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  6. Ten_On_The_End

    Ten_On_The_End VIP Whale

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    I'm pretty sure I posted this before but it bears repeating. I was playing craps at Casino Royale a few years ago and the shooter had esablished a point when right out of the blue the boxman told him to pass the dice, he was done. Then he told the guy next to him that he wasn't shooting because "I don't like your looks, either." The guy that was allowed to finish the original shooter's point sevened out right away. I colored up and split. The shooter didn't get iced, he got shut down. NGC would probably allow it but it ain't right. Low.
     
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  7. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    He actually does basically admit that the 5 count is just a way of sitting out rolls to get "free theo" for comps. It's just that that's usually one sentence in a 15 paragraph article full of smoke and mirrors about "qualified shooters".

    upload_2020-7-11_9-27-42.png
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    upload_2020-7-11_9-28-10.png
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    upload_2020-7-11_9-35-13.png
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    From the "proof":
    upload_2020-7-11_10-33-43.png

    His "proof" from computer simulations goes on to show that the only benefit is in excess comps vs. amount actually wagered.

    upload_2020-7-11_10-41-42.png
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    Plug those numbers in and you get what you'd expect, no diff (granted, these are huge numbers)

    upload_2020-7-11_10-43-4.png

    =====================================================
    Then he has 9 charts showing the diff in comps depending on what theo the casino gives you and what % of theo they comp, and he includes examples like 3% theo and 50% of theo in comps, which is kind of ridiculous.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2020
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  8. Lincster

    Lincster Low-Roller

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    I think its fun in old school places to watch a craps pit when things get hot and pressing gets the action higher than the joint is used to. You can go from one suit casually watching the game to 3-4 suits concentrating ONLY on that table. Binions, Gold Coast, Freemont, Ballys, Golden Nugget....those types of places really still sweat it. Caesars can still be very old school as well, even tho' they should be able to handle it. It must have something to do with veteran holdover suits that just grew up in a different era.

    I just look at it with amusement and part of the fun, since they aren't going to change the results either.

    I am a supporter of Boyd casinos for their ongoing insistence at providing low limit craps tables to the masses. I'll play $10min, but the most fun I can have is a a couple of hundred into a $5 game and see where it takes us. Until stupid COVID, you could always find that at the Boyd places downtown, Gold Coast, Orleans, etc. However, they are also some of the best at sweating the money, often with hilarious strategies and results. What I *don't* like about the pit reacting like that is that the dealers (and thus the table) have less fun as well. So while there is less theater at the Wynn or the Cosmo, the dealers don't sweat any action as well, both because they are used to it but also they don't have a ton of pressure behind them.
     
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  9. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    Good stuff here. Because of course, if you bet less money you lose less money. But "qualified shooter"... :evillaugh:

    Oh Frank...

    I bet he was pissed when Patricia DeMauro broke The Captain's "record" of 147 rolls. *coughs* The odds of her 154-roll run at Borgata: about 1 in 5.6 billion.

    Discussion of the math behind her roll. Solved by the brilliant BruceZ.

    https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/25/probability/154-rolls-craps-494244/
     
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  10. Travel Fanatic

    Travel Fanatic The Arbiter of Taste Caviar Kid

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    Got me thinking. So that means a 154 roll run should happen about every 14 years or so, assuming the table is running 24 hours a day every day of the year. And she made her run in 2005. So that means ..... its due!!!!!! :woohoo:Someone get me to the Borgata!!!!
     
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  11. Nittany1

    Nittany1 VIP Whale

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    I was going to Borgata this weekend until the NJ gov. said no food or drinks in the casinos. Borgata said no thanks.
    Funny thing is about the record roll is the table where it happened is not even in the craps pit but a free standing table on the far end of the casino. It is open only on afternoons and evenings on busy weekends .Never won at that stinking table.
     
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  12. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    I think it was 2009, btw. And you also need to remember that the odds of doing this is 1 in every 5.6 billion shooters. And the average shooter rolls 8.53 times. So should occur about every 47.8 billion rolls. The problem becomes how to estimate the amount of rolls per hour the world takes in casinos. Assuming the world averages 1000 active craps tables on average at all times at 100 rolls an hour (that might be way off, fwiw), that would be once every 54.5 years on average.

    Of course the odds are so astronomical, please just let me win Powerball instead!
     
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  13. pressitagain

    pressitagain VIP Whale

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    I would gladly take a roll of 120 throws. I don’t need a record....LOL.
     
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  14. rm22

    rm22 Gym Junkie

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    Happens sometimes when 1. someone puts down a last mnt bet; 2. table man/woman takes a break and they rotate plates in the middle of a hot roll; 3. someone new comes to the table and wants to buy in; 4. someone talks about 7ing out.
     
  15. azlefty

    azlefty VIP Whale

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    One theory says that if a table has been winning, it will keep on winning. Another says that if it has been losing, it is more likely to win.
    How do you know that if a table has been winning, it's not due for a loss and time to play the don't? Or maybe a table that has been losing for a long time is just beginning its even longer losing streak?

    Obviously these are examples of apophenia. You play craps, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. It's a series of random events and the dice don't remember what happened before, so there is a wide dispersion of outcomes.

    That said, if you do go to the borgata, and you play 24 hours a day for the next 28 years or so, there is a good chance you will hit that world record roll roll sometime in there. You just won't know when in the next 28 years it is going to happen until after it already did.
     
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  16. Jer

    Jer “The Walrus has spoken”

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    And then, the dreaded “stick change 7” theory... No explaining that one at all. I know the dice have no memory. And there isn’t an “official” icing method. But damn, if you play the game long enough it tends to creep in your mind because you see that crap all the time. I mean, unless you stand on one foot the roll after the stick change...:D:thumbsup:
     
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  17. Hogman

    Hogman VIP Whale

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    Done it. :(
     
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  18. mrem3200

    mrem3200 VIP Whale

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    Agree, it is totally illogical to think the dealers or pit to want you to lose, unless you are being a real jerk. I have heard this theory about them trying to cool off a hot shooter in craps, but never trying to cool off someone that is on a heater in any other game. So they don't want the player to win in Craps but but its ok in BJ?
     
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  19. Ten_On_The_End

    Ten_On_The_End VIP Whale

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    I'd like to try this. Stand on your right foot for right bettors ?
     
  20. Travel Fanatic

    Travel Fanatic The Arbiter of Taste Caviar Kid

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    I know. I am fudging the numbers a bit to fit my joke (and to make a point about gambler's logic). But I really did think that roll was in 2005, so clearly my memory was way off on that point
     
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