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Never Use Your Loyalty Card if You Don't Intend on Playing

Discussion in 'Comps' started by spdandpwr, Jan 9, 2019.

  1. spdandpwr

    spdandpwr VIP Whale

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    So, as some of you from the board may know, I had an awesome offer from V/P that went away. Further, I had an offer from CET (for Vegas) that was equally awesome and has since fizzled out.

    The offers were as follows:
    - V/P: 4 Comp'd Nights / Limo Pick-Up / Invited Guest Check-In / $300FP / $100F&B
    - CET: 5 Comp'd Nights in a Suite / $500 FP or Shopping Credit at the Forum Shops

    Wanting to understand more, I reached out to V/P (at the suggestion of the folks on this board). Here was their response:

    Thanks for reaching out. We would love to bring you back here to The Venetian and The Palazzo. It seems the offers here reduced due to the low play from October 2017 and then again in June 2018 when you dropped by. Sometimes stopping by and playing for just a few minutes is a lot worse than just playing and not using the card at all. I don’t need any offer to bring you back out this time however I can comp you upfront and based on your play during the stay I can apply additional comps to food and beverages charges at check out. After we bring you out all of your offers will be re-established. Please let me know which days you were thinking of visiting and I will let you know what I can do. Thank you!

    So, what does this mean? My little drive-bys at V/P actually hurt me even though I was just playing to stop by the casino. I didn't realize this would be such an issue, which is why I ignored the advice of folks on here. As for CET, I haven't reached out to a host, I imagine it's for the same reason where I popped by the casino just for fun.

    Personally, I think it's dump that they run the numbers like that, but I decided to probe further to see what it would take to maintain my status. Here's what the host at V/P said:

    The standard level we look is about $1.50 for about 4-5 hours per day. That will get you access to most comps if you are looking to receive promotions close to what you received before with $300 Free Play and $100 in F&B, you were playing at about 10+ hours per trip at about $2.50.

    Not sure what they're assuming for amount of bets per hour but interesting to see they comp that much based off that little play...
     
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  2. FullPay

    FullPay When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro

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    That explains why one evening at Excalibur got me on the room comps list for mLife. Of course, the resort fees on the Strip and the up charge for Delano still feels like paying for a room to me.
     
  3. DaiLun

    DaiLun R.C., L.C., and A.A.N.G.

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    $1.50 for 4-5 hours a day is NOT trivial.

    $1.50 x 10 times a minute (the average slot machine can be played in 6 seconds a pull) = $900/hr.

    Times 4-5 hours, well. you do the math.
     
    MGM Cotai and MGM Macau along with Resorts World Genting Malaysia
    Make up trip, including GGWU booster & dinner at NoMad with a new FGF!
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  4. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    How else would they run them? Without a host to look at them , its all computerized, and a computer is going to look at all the days you visited and figure out the average you would lose per visit.

    Building a custom algorithm to detect hit and run plays on trips staying elsewhere and not having them count would likely be a PITA.
     
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  5. spdandpwr

    spdandpwr VIP Whale

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    Calculate ADT only if a stay or COMP is attached to it. If not, it's free profit / gravy. The numbers can still contribute to your average bet size and/or win loss. But on comps, it should only be affected when you're actually using the comps.
     
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  6. spdandpwr

    spdandpwr VIP Whale

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    That's coin-in, though! So you're looking at $4,500 coin-in a day to get a comp room, freeplay, and food credit. You do that at CET easily!! Heck, at CET, I do $7-8k in coin-in a day and get no FreePlay...
     
  7. Geogran

    Geogran VIP Whale

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    Card in, it counts, for better or worse.

    Don’t use a card on drive by’s unless you’re not interested in future comps.

    That was one of the first and best lessons I learned here on VMB :nworthy:
     
    May Day
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  8. ardee

    ardee VIP Whale

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    As far as hit and runs, I think the mileage may vary with those who use players cards at different casinos in Vegas.
    We still get comped rooms and hosts reaching out to us to stay after playing but not staying. :)
    Might also depend on the host you connect with. We don't use hosts on the regular.
    Just got a bunch of email offers after being in Vegas for 2 nights over the Christmas holiday and barely playing the usual bankroll we spend.
    I say never say never.
    Just play the way you usually would but remember to use your card just in case it triggers a comp.
     
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  9. Southpaw33

    Southpaw33 Low-Roller

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    Whenever you swipe/use your card anywhere it triggers your daily average play. Even if it’s just to go into the diamond lounge. So if you aren’t going to play much then it’s better not to use it at all. The daily average is what triggers your offers.
     
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  10. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    So if you play in my casino and have a 10000 theo day when you first get the card, I can't send you an offer because you weren't staying?

    The comps you are talking about are a bet. They are offered to entice you to come, and thus don't carry any play obligation. To find out if they want to make that offer to you, they want to know as much as possible about how you are likely to play.

    A host can do what you are asking for (ignore a drop in) and did in your case. We are just talking about offers being sent out by a computer with no human scrutiny that carry no play requirement (they are up front) on a bet that you'll lose enough to cover them. Not sure why they'd automatically ignore any data about your tendencies.

    Again, looking at play to justify comps is a back end decision. We are talking about a marketing decision.
     
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  11. spdandpwr

    spdandpwr VIP Whale

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    I see what you mean! I do have to say that had I not had a host, I would've really screwed myself...lol
     
  12. TJC

    TJC Low-Roller

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    For me, at least one day with around four hours of play and $5k coin-in on VP and/or slots has gotten me free nights, a little free play, and some free vittles at just about every casino I've ever played. It's my basic rule of thumb if I want to stay at a joint in the future. Of course, if I'm getting kicked around, not winning anything, and close to my daily budget limit, I (usually) quit no matter how much coin-in, time spent, or want to retain offers I have. I whore my money out to enough places, there's always a plan b, c, d, etc. in place. If they ever cut comps to the point where I can't stay and eat free over a three to five day trip, I'll probably quit going. I don't see it happening, but as the casinos are getting better player analysis software and disincentivizing VP players, it's not out of the realm of possibility.
     
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  13. TIMSPEED

    TIMSPEED The biggest Degenerate on VMB

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    ANY drop in play will fuxk you over.
    Casinos want any chance to be able to give you less...it’s really a cat and mouse game, comps.
     
    Back with a bundle! (OF CASH!)
  14. paperposter

    paperposter Well-Known Member

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    you should see how bad they treat locals at v/p its a joke we are on a weekly rating ,if you loose one day ask for what ever comps u want and don't play again for 7 full days or u will those comps on the loss, if u win or play more .its crazy how cheap they are
     
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  15. ardee

    ardee VIP Whale

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    Hubster here. I agree that a play without stay hit and run at your main base is a bad idea. But otherwise, use your card. If you are a hard-core Total Rewards person, using your M-Life card at a place may just trigger some teaser offers.
     
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  16. FullPay

    FullPay When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro

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    My bad. The V/P had me thinking video poker. I can easily do $900 coin in per hour (720 hands) on quarter VP, but I doubt that would raise an eyebrow at V/P.
     
  17. Guy_

    Guy_ High-Roller

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    $900 x 4 hours = $3600
    Lets say the slots average payout is 85% (meaning you loose approx. 15%)
    3600 x0.15 = $540

    A $540 ADT to get free base rooms seems on par with most casinos of that level.
    Assuming they give the standard 30% back on your ADT... that would mean you are worth $162 a day.
    I just picked a random 3 night stay on the website that included a Saturday and it was $190 assuming you have no comp/discount.
     
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  18. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    The second sentence there should be broken up into two sentences:

    The standard level we look is about $1.50 for about 4-5 hours per day. That will get you access to most comps. (this jibes with my own experience where ~$4k coin in will get you three nights and some FP, invites to slot tourneys, etc.)

    If you are looking to receive promotions close to what you received before with $300 Free Play and $100 in F&B, you were playing at about 10+ hours per trip at about $2.50.


    Nice to have someone on the inside confirm with hard numbers.

    Just to compare the $1.50/5 hrs vs $2.50 for 10 hrs:

    • The lowest slot hold I found at V/P was 12.5% if their system was giving points accurately.
    • Let's say 450 spins/hr.
    • Let's put the room value at $150.
    • Doing $1.50 for 5 hrs will get you 3 night offers with probably no FP, so a total of $450 in value.
    • $1.50 x 450 spins x 5 hours x 3 days = $1,265 theo. So your comps are almost 36%, pretty good.
    • Doing $2.50 for 10 hrs gets you 4 nights, Limo (let's say $75), $300 FP and $100 FP, so a total of $1,075 in value.
    • $2.50 x 450 spins x 10 hrs x 4 days = $5,625 theo. So your comps are only about 19%.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
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  19. nostresshere

    nostresshere Mr. Anti Debit Card

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    Come on folks. Put your business OWNERS hat on for just a minute.

    You own the casino/hotel. You make money when people gamble. So, to encourage people to gamble, you offer them rooms and maybe food or more. So far, everyone agrees.

    Now - you have to decide who to give these offers to. Giving free rooms to somebody that will drop $20 a day is stupid. Most people would agree with that. Those that do not understand that have no business sense and should give up trying to figure it out.

    So - to figure out what to give people, they track your play. Based on that play, they do some statistical magic and come up with offers. They know some people stay at the same level, some move up, and some move down. If they figure out you moved down in gambling dollars, there is no reason to give you a room.

    As to only tracking if you are staying at the hotel - sorry - that does not work. After all, LOTS of people are staying in the hotel, but not registered. So, they go with what works best for them. Average Play.

    It is all simple business. Fight it or accept it.
     
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  20. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    I think what it boils down to is, if you're a bigger player with a history, you can get away with an occasional outlier. The algo will screw you but you can get someone to override it.

    For an average low-roller, it's a lot more difficult. Even if you get someone to look at your history, they don't really know you; for all they know, you played small because you're broke now. You're gonna have to re-prove yourself.
     
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