Slots More Than One Random Number Generator In A Machine?

At my local theres a $1 denom progressive royal 8/5 ddb machine while right next to it a non progressive 9/6. I was like WTF. but I imagine most patrons maybe upwards of 90% do not pay attention to paytables?

 

This is common, and sometimes even more obviously weird. Aria has mostly 8/5 JoB at dollars, including on the floor and at bartops. However, (1) there are a handful of 9/5 machines on the floor, (2) there are Aristocrat bartops that are 6/5 (!!!) in the same bars as the 8/5 IGT ones, and (3) there used to be a bank of 8/5 progressives otherwise the same as the 8/5 non-progressives. Not only do most people not have a clue, but their eyes will glaze over when I try to point out the difference.

 

I've posted about this a while back, but there is no way from what you see on the reel to see if there is a change to the odds. While in the old old days they did this with more cogs on the lower paying symbols for the gears to stop on, they can do it easier with computers. While the example is for a reel slot type, the concept is still the same on video slots. I believe Aristocrat invented this concept during the 'reel slot' era. The actual 'odds' are based on a virtual reel that you don't see. This is why it seems like the bonus or high value symbols always are just above or just below the lines.

 

Because this thread started with a question about reels on video games and after several posts, I was a little curious about whether video reels mimic physical reels in terms of the sequence of symbols that display. Physical reels are basically a strip of plastic glued to a reel, so the sequence on a reel doesn't change.

So I watched quite a bit of a stream of a Cleo II $1 denom session (HL at Cosmo, so $1 was the lowest denom). Cleo II has five reels and three rows. Obviously it's different than a physical reel slot in that you don't have any "in-beiweens" display even if those virtual stops exist.

I tracked each occurrence of the Sphinx bonus symbol and the Cleo II Double symbol on each reel. What I was looking for was what symbols appeared above and below those two, and was it consistent.

What I found was that the sequence appeared to be consistent for each reel, but the reels were not consistent with each other. I actually have never noticed whether the sequence of symbols on physical reel machines are the same across the reels.

This was the result. The two combos highlighted in yellow only showed up during bonus rounds, which may or may not mean anything. The Cleo II Double symbol showed up more sparsely overall than the Sphinx, but there seemed to be more combinations of it, especially on Reel 5 (although that could just be due to sample size). Which implies that there's more Cleo II Double symbols on a reel than Sphinxes, but they show up less often.



So I suppose if you wanted to work with the assumption that the sequencing on a single reel remains the same, you could go to a multi-denom Cleo II, track the configs around the Sphinx symbol, change denom and see if anything changes about the symbols surrounding the Sphinx. Or compare a $1 minimum denom to a different machine where the minimum is a penny.

FWIW, each time a bonus round was triggered, after the player revealed the number of free spins, the starting screen before the first bonus spin changed, from the screen that triggered the bonus, to the same screen as the final spin of the previous bonus. I don't think that's meaningful except as it relates to seeing the overall pattern on the static screen change when you change denoms. It just shows that a screen layout can be stored in memory.

 

Not every video slot has static reels in my opinion. Take Wonder Woman (The older version of the slot) or Fu Dai Lian Lian where there are 'stacked' symbols (and i'm not referring to Wonder Woman's assets) and which symbol stacks changes each spin. Or Munchkinland where the type of Munchkins change each spin (if you pay attention you will NEVER see 3 different munchkins land cause there are only 2 out of the 3 available each spin). Though, i'd say most slots are just like reel slots with static reels.

 

Yeah I agree, my conclusions only apply to Cleo II (and maybe other similar skins). And I don't want to pretend they're definitive even for Cleo II, just observations.

 

I've tried to map out games I play too, but they must use REALLY long reels and repeat certain patterns with 1 or 2 high value symbols changing or that damn coin is screwing with me...

 

In my years of playing Cleopatra 2, I can confirm that this is true, when playing this game in Nevada.

I believe (not 100% sure) that somewhere in the game rules screen, there is a statement that says something to the effect that "the bonus game uses a different set of reels than the main game." Hence, why I think the bonus game always begins with the final screen of the last bonus round spin. Just like some games where if you change the domination, it remembers the last reel screen played on that denomination. Again, a different set of reels is used

The Cleopatra 2 bonus game also has a different symbol pay table than the main game. If you get all five scatters inside the bonus, it does not pay as much as in the main game. The bonus game will also pay you for two picture symbols, where in the main game you don't get paid anything for two picture symbols. (Picture symbols meaning any of the "characters" with or without a wild symbol, and not the A, K, Q, J, and 10s.)

 

No they are not the same. Each reel is independent. I am sure about it.
Of course, two reels could be the same because they are independent , but rare.

 

Unfortunately what you're seeing might mean some of the reel patterns have multiple stops with the sphinx if you're seeing it more often than the Cleo II symbol even though the Cleo II symbol has more patterns.

For example, maybe on Reel 1, stops 24-26 are A-Sphinx-Q. AND stops 47-49 are ALSO A-Sphinx-Q. The only way you can figure that out is to get a big enough sample size where you can see the probability of A-Sphinx-Q is ~double compared to most reel segments on the game which only have one set of stops with that particular three symbols.

This unfortunately makes trying to "reverse engineer" a reel strip out of a slot machine a bigger PITA.

And as for the last bit. Yeah, the machine doesn't have to change anything on the display when switching denomination if it doesn't want to.

 

I have always assumed that video reels have more combination options than physical reels. Using Cleopatra 2 as the example again, which is a 20 line game, most casinos have ordered configurations of the game where you can play less than 20 paylines.

By law, slot machines have to pay back a minimum of X% in Nevada. So if I decide to play just one single payline, the line that runs across the middle, the machine still has to be set to pay back the minimum of X%. It could not accomplish this if it used the same set of reels as if you were playing all 20 lines, because there would be more line hits on paylines #2 through #20, throwing the X% minimum payback requirement out of wack.

When you choose to play just one payline, I assume the set of reels screens outcomes has to change to where it can still meet the payback requirement with just pay line number one. Correct?

On physical reels machines, where the symbols positions cannot change, I assume the computer must take out X number of screen outcomes until the math meets up with the state X% minimum payback (or whatever percentage the casino ordered for that machine) for the number of pay lines you are doing.

My gambling budget does not allow me to do $20 a spin, if I'm doing the dollar denomination of Cleo 2. So I have played it for less number of paylines before, and I've noticed that my payback is about the same as if I did all 20 payllines on a lower denomination. As an example, here is a bonus I got doing just seven pay lines.

 

Umm, this is just so incorrect.
The machine's lowest payback % must meet requirements. It may mean that 1 line has lower than 20 lines but its still above the min % payback. Nothing says the % payback must be the same for all # of lines. The min is 75% payback I believe which is crazy low and any slot approaching that number should just never be played.
As for physical reels, watch the video I linked.
As for your observation, your sample set would need to be in the millions of bonus games to come to any real conclusion.

 

Yeah, that's a good point.

I think I may have actually seen it.

For example, this matrix:


means that:

• Every time the Sphinx landed on the middle line, the symbols above & below were either K-A or Q-Q
• Every time the Sphinx landed on the top row, the symbol below it was either A or Q
• Every time the Sphinx landed on the bottom row, the symbol above it was either K or Q

I wasn't really looking more than immediately above and immediately below. But I think there was at least one occurence where the Sphinx landed on the bottom row and:

In one case the display was
Q
K
Sphinx

and another was
J
K
Sphinx

which supports what you're saying.

 

Right, I agree with you on this. To accomplish this when playing just one pay line though, I assume the game cannot use the same "bucket of reel outcomes" as if you were doing all 20 pay lines, because there would be more wins on paylines # 2 through #20 that you would not collect. That would throw the 75% (or whatever percentage the casino ordered programmed) minimum off, correct?

You get a different "bucket of real outcomes" when playing just one pay line, so the math works out to meet whatever minimum percentage payback the machine is programmed at? In the case of playing just pay line number one, the bucket of outcomes would have to have more winning spins on pay line number one. Or am I still not understanding what you're saying?

 

I might be missing something big, but I don’t see how playing one payline would have a lower return than playing 20 lines. Each payline has an identical return so it doesn’t matter how many lines you play. Playing 20 lines as opposed to 1 line gives you 20 opportunities to hit a winning line instead of 1 for 20 times the cost of one line.

The reel stripes don’t have to change at all to accomplish the same return.

 

You are wagering 1/20th of the bet for 1 line vs 20 lines. So it barely moves the math and the 75% minimum is based on how much you bet and how much you win over millions of spins. You're not betting on those 19 lines (#2-20) so the wins there don't matter. Even if it did change the math, if its 90% for 20 lines and 75% return for 1 line(which its not) its would still be within the law.

For some slots more lines is actually lower payback. Think about the 3 reeler old slots with 5 lines. 3 Horizontal and 2 Diagonals. Each line independently has the same chance to hit 7 7 7, but you can never get 7 7 7 on all 5 lines. In the end, the % change in chance is miniscule still. So why play 5 lines on those slots? because it lowers variance/volatility. Most the 'penny' slots the number of lines doesn't really impact the % enough to require different reels, and if bonuses trigger scattered anywhere then it might actually be higher payback on 1 line vs 20.

 

But you're betting 20X less though to compensate for the wins you don't receive on lines 2-20, so the payback percentage remains the same, barring a bonus payout for something when betting all twenty lines. You just ignore what lines 2-20 say, the game should have X% payback (X > 75 in Nevada) no matter what number of lines you play.

 

Somehow I trust what you're saying is accurate. It's just not clicking in my poor head.

So you sit down at a slot machine and you change it to play on just one pay line. That changes the game to a one payline game. And you are playing 100% of whatever your betting. Not 1/20th. The programming of the machine still has to take whatever amount your betting and pay you back the X percentage.

An example of this would be the Multi Way games that don't use pay lines, they instead pay you scattered pays from left to right. For example, Aztec Temple or Nefertiti from IGT. The screen advertises "243 ways to win" if you do all the spaces. If you lower your bet, you get less spaces and it changes to say "27 ways to win", or "81 ways to win," etc.

Again, I think you're right and I'm just not having it click in my head at the moment. I need to pause and give my brain a rest and read through this another day.

 

Okay. Now I understand! I guess I just needed it worded this way.

 

In that example, more lines would still offer exactly the same payout. Just because you can’t hit the 777 on all 5 lines doesn’t mean the return on playing all 5 lines is any less. Each individual line you play has the same chances of winning.