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Table Games Match Play how do you use it

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by tigers4life, Dec 30, 2019.

  1. tigers4life

    tigers4life Low-Roller

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    With the 50 dollar match play in the LVA and the match play for flying southwest or sprint at some downtown hotels it got me thinking. (Neve a good thing at my age.) I usually used my match play at Blackjack when I felt the time was right (I seem to recall sometimes only being able to use it on the first hand but I might be wrong about that). Mostly because I play blackjack and it seemed to make sense. But I have been reading a bit and some web sites seem to say Blackjack is not the best game to use it on. They talk about using it on craps on the pass line, baccarat, and even roulette. (I do play craps but to be honest, I can not remember the last time I played roulette the edge is so high. I also say I will play baccarat but never seem to get there. ) So what games and situations do you use your match play in and why
     
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  2. deansrobinson

    deansrobinson VIP Whale

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    Blackjack, first hand, not something I want to tote around mentally or physically. Use it and move on.
     
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  3. WHITEJACKET73

    WHITEJACKET73 High-Roller

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    I usually use a "hit and run" strategy when I use my match plays. In that scenario, I don't want to sit at a BJ table especially when there are other players and play one hand using my match play and then take off. I hate it when a player sits in at my table and plays one or two hands and then leaves; especially when I am on a winning streak. I put my match play and money on "black" at a roulette table. One spin and I am outa there. Last trip I won 3 out of 4 times using my match plays at some of the downtown casinos.
     
    The Big Game Trip
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  4. oldbrewzer

    oldbrewzer Low-Roller

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    Just curious, does anyone know how much the house edge increases if you use match play at Blackjack and the pay out is only "even money" vs. normal 3:2 or 6:5 if you hit 21.
     
    Looking forward to Spring.
  5. RIRugrat

    RIRugrat Low-Roller

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    ”Always bet on Black” - Wesley Snipes
     
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  6. Chriscodisco

    Chriscodisco Tourist

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    Let it ride best for match play if they allow you to use it
    Play ten in chips ten in match play on ante
    Other two bets can be 20 each and u can pull back if you want
    Match play portion only pays even money
     
  7. vegaskid74

    vegaskid74 High-Roller

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    This is actually an excellent question. I think most people use matchplays on BJ because it has the lowest house edge (assuming perfect basic strategy) of any casino game. The thing is, the player actually loses far more hands than he wins, but makes up for it with splits, double downs, and BJs. The problem is, most casinos only pay even money on the matchplay coupon when you get a blackjack, and many will not allow the player to double or split on the coupon portion of the bet, and this affects the expected value of the coupon (I'm not sure exactly to what extent, however. This would be a great question for the Wizard of Odds). Again, blackjack only has the lowest house edge because of splits, doubles, and the 3:2 payoff on a BJ. If the coupon doesn't participate in those advantages, common sense tells me the value of the coupon is reduced dramatically.

    To be more specific, I definitely would not use the "$5-50 matchplay" for the Downtown Grand from the 2020 LVA coupon book for blackjack. The coupon says it has a maximum payout of $100. If you bet $50 plus the matchplay and catch a blackjack, the correct payout is $125 even if they only pay even money on the coupon which is typical. You'll get shorted a full $25 which drastically reduces the value of the coupon. If splits and double downs get involved, they could end up owing you more than $125 from your original $50 bet, and technically based on the verbage on the coupon they could refuse to pay you any more than $100 total. The more I think about it, the more troubling the wording on that coupon appears, and the more certain I am that you should not use it for blackjack.

    Long story short, for many years I've been playing all of my matchplays on the pass line or don't pass in craps or on baccarat rather than messing with blackjack. The actual expected value of a matchplay coupon used on blackjack is not a simple question to answer, especially when there is no uniform way of handling the coupon (a few dealers have paid 3:2 on the coupon for a blackjack but most don't, a few have allowed me to double on the coupon or add it to the value of a split hand but most don't, etc.). Better to just use it on craps or baccarat which have almost as low of a house edge and have a 0% chance of leaving you wondering whether or not the coupon was honored fairly and be done with it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2020
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  8. Calder

    Calder High-Roller

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    I've always been in an even-numbered group, so we offset our bets and split the proceeds.

    Red / black, or Pass / Don't Pass (though we only tried that once, and the boxman at the Cal seemed annoyed).

    The 50% return on coups pay for the ACG and LVA books pretty quickly.

    If it "plays 'til it loses," then we all play the pass line and hope for a string of comeout naturals.
     
  9. boxofbirds

    boxofbirds Royal Flushless

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    Wizard of Odds has the stats: https://wizardofodds.com/gambling/promotional-chips/

    If restricted to even money bets, then the player will get the most value betting Match Play chips on the Banker bet in EZ baccarat, at 48.27% of face value. If that game isn't an option, then the second best bet to use a Match Play chip is the Player bet in baccarat, at 47.95% of face value.
    For comparison, Blackjack is 46.2% face value (though probably even less if they won't pay 3:2 for a Blackjack, etc), 47.88% for Pass Line, 47.9% for Don't Pass, and 42.11% for Double-Zero Roulette.

    So, if you want the absolute best "edge" then play some EZ Baccarat, but if you don't mind losing a couple percent in value then just play it on your favorite game! I personally mix it up between Blackjack and Craps, with an occasional Roulette if tables are full and I just want to make the bet and run.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2020
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  10. vegaskid74

    vegaskid74 High-Roller

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    Thanks, nice find. The Wiz lists blackjack at 46.2% of the face value of the coupon, but he doesn't specifically state what rules he assumed. Based on the discussion above his chart, I'm guessing he assumed blackjack pays 3:2 on the coupon, but the coupon doesn't participate in splits and doubles. My experience, however, has often been that the coupon only gets even money on BJ, and when this is the case, the value will be much lower than 46.2%. I guess the moral of the story is, ask how the coupon is going to be handled before betting it if you must bet it on blackjack, but better yet, bet it on baccarat or craps instead which have a higher expected value anyway.
     
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  11. FABismonte

    FABismonte Tell my wife I am "about even."

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    I like the suggestions raised by previous posters, but since the OP is asking about LVA and Southwest/Sprint matchplays, I believe he is talking about the D. If so, keep in mind that the D also has an LVA coupon for "Push your bet on 22" one can use on Blackjack. That push promo is limited to $25 but in my experience it applies to both the $25 cash bet as well as the $25 matchplay. Whereas if you put a $50 cash bet, you usually have $25 taken away should you bust on 22 ( your experience may vary).
     
  12. Bobby B

    Bobby B Low-Roller

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    How is the roulette black/red or even/odd not at 47.3%? Wouldn't the calculation be 18/38? What am I missing?
     
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  13. AyDee

    AyDee is getting too old for this

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    VegasJun20-24 160.JPG
    I think this was best case scenario at GG high limit with a $25 match play, looks like I didn't get paid on the match portion.
    I asked nicely, saying, "this probably isn't going to happen again anytime soon", and the
    Pitboss was kind enough to make the dealer re-create the deal for me to take this photo.
    Regular GG pit will shoot you down every time if you ask to take a pic.

    The $25 min table took it all back very quickly like I expected.

    I usually play a low stakes BJ table, get a feel for the deck, then max the matchplay if things are going well, or I'm near the end.
    Don't want to throw the coupon into a craps pit, for some reason. Might break the "flow".
    Roulette feels too much like a coin flip.

    I guess my probably wrong lazy intuitive math would imply that in this instance, that increased HA by 25%, since that was the amount of my shortpay?
    and I guess, if BJ pays even and its 3:2, that would increase HA by 33%?
    (eagerly awaiting corrections- oh of course, adjusted for probablity of that occuring)

    Also, since I've switched to a more hit & run type of game w/ matchplay, anyone notice in BJ, you often come out up exactly by the amount of matchplay? or maybe it's just me getting out at that point.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2020
    One mid trip night
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  14. boxofbirds

    boxofbirds Royal Flushless

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    Never tried to use them both at the same time! GTK
     
  15. boxofbirds

    boxofbirds Royal Flushless

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    Not sure exactly how Wizard of Odds calculates the value of a matchplay, but I believe it calculation involves more than just the probability of winning any hand, it has a lot to do with the variance of the particular wager. Grosjean explains it a bit here: http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/beyondcouponsbjfo.pdf
     
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  16. AyDee

    AyDee is getting too old for this

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    something I've wondered about is holding your save bust on 22 card in your pocket until you have a max (allowable) bet bust.
    usually I just clear it ahead of time, when I cash in, with the pitboss, so it's not a pain at the table when it occurs, but that would disincline you from underbetting the max.

    also, I think like the pay on any 20 sucker bet (forgot where), once you get that into play, you would be amazed at how rarely you bust on 22.
     
    One mid trip night
    Just can't quit Boyd... YET.
  17. AyDee

    AyDee is getting too old for this

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    my first skim reactions to that are
    -all his BJ calcs are based on generous S17, DAS, isn't most DT H17?
    -interesting thought on preferring CSM for quick BJ in/out as it applies to 2:1 for natural BJ ($4.10 EV for $10 max)
    -BJ deviations will gain you a penny on $10
    -interesting 3CP strats, but for keep on loss.

    here's the BJ breakout:
    Blackjack.Typical 6-deck rules are used: Stand on soft 17 (S17), Double On Any two cards(DOA), Double After Split (DAS), ReSplit up to 4 hands (RS4), No ReSplitting of Aces (NoRSA),and only one card to split Aces. A full 3:2 payo on naturals is indicated as \BJ1:5." \BJ1:25"indicates that the live-money portion of the wager pays 3:2, while the match-play coupon pays only1:1.
    BlackjackLS S17 DOA DAS RS4 noRSA BJ1:5[20/10]4.94
    BlackjackS17 DOA DAS RS4 noRSA BJ1:5(optimal,BS) [20/20]4.73,4.71
    BlackjackLS S17 DOA DAS RS4 noRSA BJ1:25[20/10]$4.64
    BlackjackS17 DOA DAS RS4 noRSA BJ1:5(optimal,BS) [20/10]4.54,4.53
    BlackjackS17 DOA DAS RS4 noRSA BJ1:25(optimal,BS) [20/20]$4.50,
    BlackjackS17 DOA DAS RS4 noRSA BJ1:25(optimal,BS) [20/10]$4.31,4.30

    IMHO it's still best played on a game you like to play as a buffer or jumping off point.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2020
    One mid trip night
    Just can't quit Boyd... YET.
  18. Homeschool

    Homeschool Low-Roller

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    No need to keep it in your pocket. I always tuck mine under my chips or the edge of the rail until I choose to use it. No one's ever said a word.
     
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  19. Calder

    Calder High-Roller

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    I think I get your point, but
    I'd be overjoyed at the chance for a match play coin flip!
     
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  20. tigers4life

    tigers4life Low-Roller

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    I read the article you linked to and it is good. The math sometimes gets me. But he seems to be saying play roulette but put it on a single number. I can see that but I guess in my case that is still 50 bucks on one number that seems high. Anyway, thank you all.