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M-Life Changes

Discussion in 'Comps' started by Carol1113, Oct 2, 2019.

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  1. JeJas

    JeJas VIP Whale

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    I played at Bellagio, MGM Grand, Excalibur, MB.
    I am very sure the earning rates depend on machines
     
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  2. bull0120

    bull0120 High-Roller

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    It looks like maybe the average bet is playing into the EC's on VP too? On my last trip at NYNY (10.04 & 10.05) I earned 16.9k tier credits over the stay and was playing mostly $0.50 max bet JOB at the Center Bar (a couple of slots mixed in briefly the first night and was lucky enough to win a little) and only earned $2.06 in EC...
     
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  3. boxofbirds

    boxofbirds Royal Flushless

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    One thing to remember here is that you can also earn Tier Credits from spend, so any room charges, or food charged to the room, etc. And it's at a 25x per dollar rate, so can really inflate your Tier Credits, even if you only earned it on one night and a couple meals... Also there are Tier Credit promotions, one just ended on October 10th, where you earn like 3x extra Tier Credits on everything, but not extra Points or Express Comps.

    So the best comparison to calculate your earning is your Points vs Express Comps
    because you only get Points from your gambling and it's at a fixed rate of either 10x or 3x per dollar, depending on the game you're playing.
     
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  4. JeJas

    JeJas VIP Whale

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    You are right.
    But in my case, it's pure VP play.
    I never spend a penny out of pocket except tips.
    Also asked TC promotion, I didn't have it.
     
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  5. JeJas

    JeJas VIP Whale

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    Talking about machine dependence, I would believe some of the better machines such as 8/5 BP don't give any EC at all.
     
  6. boxofbirds

    boxofbirds Royal Flushless

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    Maybe I found some they didn't fix up properly? They're also multigame machines, there are definitely lower paying games on the same machine
     
  7. JulianC

    JulianC Amateur

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    I just went to MGM Springfield tonight. I am still running through my numbers from my play. Coin-in per base point appears to be the same as before -- $3 per base point for (most) slots, $10 per base point for (most) VP. It looks like Express Comps are purely based on theo -- even on slot machines, and based on the specific theo set for the machine (just like at Venetian / Palazzo and at Tuscany). As a test, I did 35 base points (pre-bonus) worth of slot play. In the past, that play would have also earned $0.01 per point in ECs -- and I would have expected to have gotten $0.35 in ECs. Instead, I got $1.01 in base ECs. Later, on a different slot machine, I did 333 base points worth of play, which used to get $3.33 in ECs. I got $8.12 in ECs, much to my surprise. EC earning for VP for me (I was playing 6/5 Bonus, with all 4OAKs paying 35-for-1 -- the best single-line game at the 25-cent denom I could find where two pair paid 2-for-1) was actually better than expected, given the reports.

    A few quick calculations and an eyeball test suggest that Mlife Express Comps are now earned at a rate of 10% of theo across all games. (By comparison, I know that V/P and Encore Boston Harbor have their comp dollar earning at a rate of 6% of theo, and Tuscany is 30% of theo.) Thus, at Mlife casinos, we just might be able to calculate (or closely estimate) the hold percentage of any given machine.

    Additionally, I have been finding the addition of TCs to my account to be quite slower than usual, relative to the conclusion of play. Even for my table game play, ECs have been showing up well in advance of the related TCs. I am now seeing TCs severely lagging behind points and ECs for machine play.

    Along the lines of table games and ECs, it appears that the formula is simpler (and unchanged from what has already been happening at most Mlife properties outside of Vegas). TCs for table games are calculated based on theo (however they do it). ECs are based on TCs, and it still appears to be $0.01 in ECs per TC earned from table play.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2019
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  8. JulianC

    JulianC Amateur

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    My initial thought from my analysis is that, for the video poker player, Mlife just became almost as bad as BConned. Let's compare earned (self-)comps for $10k of coin-in with BConned (presuming one is above Ruby), Mlife, Caesars Rewards, Tuscany Rewards, Grazie (presuming base level), and Cosmo -- with the VP having a 2% hold / house advantage.

    BConned -- $2 coin-in per point; 1000 points per redeemable dollar; 5000 points earned, worth $5 on retail purchases or $8.33 on food/hotel/shopping
    Mlife -- estimating 10% of theo for ECs; $200 theo, $20 EC
    Caesars Rewards -- $10 coin-in per reward credit; 100 points per redeemable dollar; 1000 points earned, $10 in RCs
    Tuscany Rewards -- 30% of theo for comp dollars; $200 theo, $60 in comps
    Grazie -- 6% of theo for comp dollars, or $0.006 per slot point earned; $200 theo / 2000 slot points, $12 in earned comps [however, must redeem a minimum of $15 at a time]
    Cosmo -- $6 coin-in per point; 100 points per redeemable dollar; 1666 points earned, $16.66 in resort spend

    The Mlife number does not quite look consistent with reports I have seen and my own observations. Looking back at my play at Luxor earlier in October 2019, my ECs from VP play in their higher limit room (7/5 JoB -- 1.99% actual hold) would be consistent with the whole machine having been set to a hold of 0.4% -- basically, a presumption of all games on the machine having the same hold as 9/6 JoB. This wild inconsistency between machine settings makes Mlife casinos less favorable. Changing the hold from the $10k coin-in from above to 0.4%, the Mlife ECs would drop to $4 -- which would make it the worst on the list, and quite distantly so behind BConned only because Boyd actually does offer good VP paytables. For both Mlife and BConned and the VP player -- find the best paytables you can, play to win (and not for comps), and do your best to not care about earned comps; also, remember that a massive reduction in earned comp dollars from play does not mean worse front-end comp offers (a discussion for another show).

    Just for fun, let's look at the same thing for slots, and presume a 10% hold for $2k coin-in (same theo as the VP above)...

    BConned -- $1 coin-in per point; 1000 points per redeemable dollar; 2000 points earned, worth $2 on retail purchases or $3.33 on food/hotels/shopping
    Mlife -- estimating 10% of theo for ECs; $200 theo, $20 EC [this seems to be consistent, but more research is needed from the field -- especially to confirm how house-favorable the machine settings are...]
    Caesars Rewards -- $5 coin-in per reward credit; 100 points per redeemable dollar; 400 points earned, $4 in RCs
    Tuscany Rewards -- 30% of theo for comp dollars; $200 theo, $60 in comps [I am fairly certain that most machines are adjusted to be a bit more house-favorable]
    Grazie -- 6% of theo for comp dollars, or $0.006 per slot point earned; $200 theo / 2000 slot points, $12 in earned comps [however, must redeem a minimum of $15 at a time]
    Cosmo -- $2.50 coin-in per point; 100 points per redeemable dollar; 800 points earned, $8 in resort spend

    Prior to the Mlife EC earning change, the slot player would have gotten $6.66 for $2k of slot coin-in -- which would have been fourth-best on this list. Only Tuscany would now be better. Clearly, the Mlife EC earning change was an effort to thwart the correct claims by the local competition on/near the Strip (save for CET) that slot players earn better self-comps away from Mlife.
     
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  9. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    Very interesting.

    For the EC amount comparison, are you comparing Springfield to Springfield, or Vegas to Springfield? Nothing was supposed to have changed as far as how ECs are calc'd on machines in Springfield.

    I can't see them all of a sudden giving almost 3x the current ECs on slot play, and not at 10% of theo, at least in Vegas.

    The "old" EC calc in Vegas would work out to 3.33% of theo (A slot at 10% theo, every $3 coin-in generates 30 cents in theo, 1 cent in ECs and 1 cent in point play).

    I do agree that if you got $1.01 in ECs on $105 coin-in in Springfield, that's almost 10% of theo (if theo is 10% of coin-in). It just doesn't sound right. Don't forget, they also supposedly throw time in as a factor, which means actual theo by itself wouldn't be the determinative variable.

    I think that's true, they probably just pocket the diff. But I would expect the reverse to be true - an increase in cash-equivalent comps (ECs) would come out of room offers.

    Now assume that their total comp package (room offers, ECs and PointPlay) is capped at 30% of theo (I think it's closer to 25%, but whatever).

    So the pre-Oct 1 2019 way in Vegas, the total comp package was:
    3.33% of theo in ECs
    3.33% of theo in PointPlay
    24% of theo in room offers

    If you boost the EC to 10%, it's gotta come from somewhere, and it doesn't sound like it'd come from PointPlay. So I'd expect it to come from room offers, and shaving close to 7% of the value of room offers should be noticeable in some fashion at some point. I'd expect them to reduce freeplay and resort credit first.

    Yeah, I wouldn't expect that to change outside Vegas, since it's supposedly the model they switched machines to. You still won't get any EC's for tables in Vegas.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2019
  10. JeJas

    JeJas VIP Whale

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    10% of theo on EC?
    That seems too high. At least based my experience with Vegas casinos, not likely.
     
  11. andyg99

    andyg99 VIP Whale

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    I honestly think docking the lunar module with the command module is easier than figuring this shit out!
     
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  12. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    It's definitely easier, they never failed.
     
  13. Nittany1

    Nittany1 VIP Whale

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    Very strange.
    Just logged into MLife,I have $220 in Express Comps.
    But when I go to Borgata MLife, I have $1528 in Express Comps and earned $285 last weekend with no slot play.
    It would love to figure out if there's a way to use some of the Borgata EC in Las Vegas.
    Anybody know?
     
  14. JulianC

    JulianC Amateur

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    Originally, I incorrectly answered this. Best to go to the source. You will have to get the Borgata points converted at other Mlife destinations.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2019
  15. killswamper23

    killswamper23 Low-Roller

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    borgata has a separate website than mlife.com and their system is separate
    even booking rooms- you have to go to the borgata website not mlife.

    you can however go to mgm properties in vegas and have them transfer you your borgata comp dollars
     
  16. JulianC

    JulianC Amateur

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    Stayed and played with Mlife this week in Vegas (and still in town). Meticulously kept track of my base point and base EC earning for all of my machine action. It looks like Vegas EC earning (with Mlife now clearly confirming that table games in Vegas do not earn ECs) is at a rate of between 2.5 and 3 percent of the hold defined for the whole machine. The number I kept getting is 2.8 percent of machine theo as ECs, with a huge presumption that machine hold/theo is set to conveniently rounded numbers. By comparison, I found EC earning in Springfield to be 10 percent of machine/table theo.

    With more data points in hand, I can now more confidently state...
    • The EC earning changes adversely affect customers in Vegas, but are favorable for customers at the regionals/locals. If you play at a MGM regional a fair amount and occasionally visit Vegas, try to save up your ECs for use in Vegas.
    • No love for the video poker player in any market. Find the best games you can play at your preferred denomination, because you are now only getting ECs based on the lowest-hold game on the machine. This could mean getting only a third or less of what you should be getting based on what you actually play. Play to win, and not (as much) for comps. Speaking of... we can now see how VP players do not get "full credit" for their play when not choosing to play the highest RTP game on the machine, in the context of future offers. This reminds me of something a prolific poster here once said a host at the Palms stated about VP players never being able to get anywhere with comps (will edit and link later to the source). We may now have emperical evidence of how this can be made to be true.
    • Tier bonuses for points and ECs certainly still apply.
    • If ECs matter to you, consider converting your earned points to ECs to make up for the Vegas shortfall.
    • It is now possible to very closely estimate (if not flat out nail) the defined hold (even if it is not the real/actual hold) of any machine that has a card reader for Mlife and accumulates points, knowing only the exact base ECs earned and the exact amount of coin-in for an individual session on the machine.
    The same principals can be applied to other places. One example. It has generally been a mystery how D/GG comes up with earned comp dollars, as the formula is not customer-facing and the language in their literature is vague. From my close observations, I know for sure that it is not based directly on point-earning. Then again, their table games have always earned comp dollars, so it couldn't have been based on points. My estimate for D/GG is 5 percent of theo/hold as defined for the machine/table. Not as easy to come up with that one because earned comps show up only in the portal online, and only rounded to the nearest dollar.
     
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  17. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    Interesting.

    So I'm inferring that you were able to detect a difference in EC earning between different machines in Vegas?

    For example, $100 coin in got you X ECs on one machine and Y ECs on another? Where the difference wasn't due to one machine being a specialty machine.

    3-ish percent was roughly the earning level the old way - $3 coin-in = 30 cents theo at 10% hold = 1 cent in ECs = 3.33%. But of course, it was based on coin-in rather than theo.
     
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  18. JulianC

    JulianC Amateur

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    Even if it is a specialty slot, the (estimated) EC earning rate holds true. The only one of those I played (and not for very long, once I noticed that it counted as specialty) was Ultimate Fire Link -- which I have down as 7 percent hold. I played Kronos Unleashed at both Bellagio and at Aria, and found those to be 10% at both locations. I have a Wonder 4 machine (set all games to Buffalo Gold; machine has a bonus wheel and small per-game progressives) at 7.25%. A modernized 5-line, 3-reel Triple Double Diamond (25-cent denom) came out to 12%, while an older 9-line, 5-reel (also at 25-cent denom) of TDD came out to 10 percent.

    The video poker machine theo settings did vary a good bit more, and are just not going to be nice round numbers as seen with slots. At Bellagio, I did exactly $100 of coin-in on 6/5 bonus (10-play, 5-cent denom) with the 96.87% RTP pay table. I got 3 cents of base ECs. I have that machine noted as (likely, but almost certainly) having the machine hold set to that of 9/6 DDB (98.98% RTP, or 1.02% hold) -- common game, but a pay table more often seen at $1 denom and up on the Strip. If one cares to do the math, one will find everything to line up within 1-2 cents of actual base ECs.

    I now need to track down which VP pay tables have 98.75% and 98.35% RTP. Also, I unfortunately did not play multiple games on the same machine to verify for sure that Mlife deals only in machine theo and not in exact game theo the way Cosmo can. However, given that MGM needs to be consistent across all casinos, and that one can find as many as three different player tracking systems in the same casino (with an age spread as large as 15 years), there's no way MGM could do exact game / pay table theo for calculating comps (for ECs, back end, or future offers).
     
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  19. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    The problem with slots is that you have to KNOW for certain at least one variable (besides coin-in) to be able to solve for the other(s).

    That's why you can figure out the hold % at Venetian/Palazzo - they tell you how many points you get per $1 of theo.

    At MLife, we don't know how many pennies of ECs you get per $1 of theo and we don't know the theo %.

    But if it comes out to 3%-ish on video poker, that's a decent benchmark, because you DO know the hold%.

    7% and 7.25% holds sound really low for a Fire Link or Buffalo game, especially if they were penny denom. I wouldn't expect to get that low a hold % until you got to a $10 or $25 denom.

    Of course, like you mentioned, the internal systems architecture may not allow them to truly peg ECs exactly to theo for every machine/game/denom. I think Venetian/Palazzo fudges it a little in some cases.

    edited to clarify when VP means video poker vs when VP means Venetian/Palazzo :D
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2019
  20. JulianC

    JulianC Amateur

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    The Wonder 4 machine was at penny denom and Fire Link was at dime denom (though most people will play the same machine at pennies and not change the denom). Quite fair point about the holds. A range of 11-15 percent might actually be more appropriate for machine hold (because pennies). Looking at my numbers again, it looks like the premium/specialty game status may indeed be a factor.

    I will now estimate that specialty slots earn exactly half of the ECs as "regular" slots (and half is a nice clean figure for marketing) -- so change the EC earning rate to 1.4% of machine theo. With that change, I have Fire Link looking like 12% hold. The Wonder 4 hold estimate might need some more research and development.
     
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