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Let's dissect this hand street-by-street - Tournament KQ

Discussion in 'The Poker Room' started by TRN, Mar 29, 2017.

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  1. NeonTurtle14

    NeonTurtle14 Hot Dogs and Buns

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    Similar to 'how would you play this?' but I'll pause at each decision point for feedback.

    Tournament is a local $60 turbo shovefest type of thing. 15 minute levels, crappy structure, 8000 chips to start, unlimited re-entries for first 2 hours. Typically gets 80-120 entries.

    Hand takes place in level 9, the first level after the entry/re-entry period closed. Blinds are 500/1000/200. Lots of short stacks shoving now to keep relevant status in the game.

    Hero has 25k chips after a good run in levels 7/8 as the last re-entry players were shoving with marginal hands to double up or re-enter.

    Villain has about 16k chips. Is a regular in this casino, and older guy known for being a nit in the 1/2 NLHE or 4/8 LHE games. I've seen him make some crazy bluff and semi-bluff shoves before though, so know he is at least capable of it. But generally a rock. He's wearing a "Make America Great Again" ballcap - not sure if he is a Trump supporter, or if he just attempting to stir some sh-- or throw off reads by wearing it. He is also known for talking sh-- and getting under people's skin to get them to call.

    In this hand, Villain is in MP, hero is on Button.

    Pre-flop - action folds to MP who raises to 2100. For some reason, the SB folds out of turn, and the BB reacts because the SB acted, and folds also. Dealer gets players back on track, and action folds to me, the last possible player in the hand now. Hero looks down at KQ suited hearts.

    What to do here? Call? Raise? Fold?
     
  2. Wonka

    Wonka Tourist

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    first of TRN, love these situations you come into!
    I like disecting hands as well and glad you have a great memory on these hands.

    back to your question... i would call. (some people will go crazy with what they will do.. "aka raise to have control .. etc" but if im a regular like you are i like to keep my play consistent. I call as i like to do my action on the post flop.
     
  3. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    A raise is essentially a shove here. Even a lesser raise either gets folder, or shoved back. So you don't do it unless you want that. It could be defended, but you still have 25 BB, and villain will be getting a price that is hard to get away from. And your hand isn't that amazing for a race.

    You have a great price for a call with zero threat of a squeeze from the blinds ... just free equity from them. I'd call it in position and make villain decide for his tournament life without any read on whether the flop hit you.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. vetsen

    vetsen Low-Roller

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    100% agree.
     
  5. meyers67

    meyers67 VIP Whale

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    Just call
     
  6. booker

    booker VIP Whale

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    I would be a caller … and am already thinking what I would do if I whiff the flop, hit a K or Q, see an A, or have a straight draw.

    "Keep those cards and letters coming!" Looking forward to the rest of the story.
     
  7. TriggerMN

    TriggerMN The Norwegian Hammer

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    I'm with everyone else. A raise to 2100 with 3300 already in the pot (if the table is full) and both blinds folded out of turn, you're getting spectacular odds to call. But you have to ask yourself, why would someone raise so small here with so many players behind left to act? With a big pocket pair you wouldn't want 3 callers behind, so you would make the raise bigger and price out marginal hands. However, if it's a nit just being a nit, then it's definitely a good time to see if you can punish him for his poor play.
     
  8. Shipppp09

    Shipppp09 Low-Roller

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    Ok we're calling..now let's see a flop
     
  9. NeonTurtle14

    NeonTurtle14 Hot Dogs and Buns

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    Hero does call. Pot 7700 (2100x2 + 500 + 1000 + 10x200) (yes this plays 10 handed ugh)

    Flop: QJ7 (rainbow + 1 heart for backdoor flush draw in addition to backdoor straight draw and top pair)

    V leads for 1700.

    Hero action?
     
  10. NeonTurtle14

    NeonTurtle14 Hot Dogs and Buns

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    Thanks... I write down memorable hands, take good notes, and when it's villains like this one who I play with a lot, I can recall a ton of past history which is helpful.
     
  11. Wonka

    Wonka Tourist

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    so you call, 25,000 less 200 less 2100 you have $22.7K behind.

    Pot is now 9400, 7700 +1700 post flop

    into my decision at least, how many people are left in the tournament? whats the bubble number? seems like it right after the entry so im assuming thats a while from now.

    Another thing into my decision, how many chips does V1 have left? if we have about even stack, what's the chances he shoves? (if i re-raise) I ask bout the chip stack because lets say he has another 5K left, he is pretty much committed you either call or put his stack in. If he is chip leader.. he might want to continue pushing it at you. and for me. 9400 with about 22K left. i prefer to get in another bet from him.

    Assuming chip stacks are similar at this point, I would call again. That's just what I would do. :) please spare the criticism :)
     
  12. XKxRome0ox

    XKxRome0ox Low-Roller

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    definitely call pre-flop in your situation

    but flop is dangerous!
    why is he betting so small here?
    any raise commits you to the pot because the other guy started out with 16k vs your 25k
    but it's not a hand i love

    i'll defer to more experienced players
     
  13. GBlade

    GBlade Tourist

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    Looks like V might have a hand like A-Q or Q-10 suited. I would have to just call.
     
  14. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    My first instinct is to shove. Tournament structures like this sometimes you just have to shrug and say "if he has it he has it". Aside from the jack and lack of a second heart, the flop is about as good as you could hope for when you call pre-flop.

    But for the sake of the exercise, and because I am working on shoring this stuff up, I will try to put him on a range. It will also help decide whether its better to raise now, or call and give him another street.

    Which is tricky, because those are two very weak bets.

    So, hands I am writing off:

    • AA, KK, QQ -while it is plausible a player would underbet them to try for action and risk the multi-way pot, that would be weird from middle position, where he can likely pick up a call or raise behind with a bigger bet (especially if any of the stacks behind him pre-flop are short). Don't know enough about his style, but I'd never play them like this I don't think
    • AK, JJ , Tens - They are still very solid hands, but they won't like the look of many flops. I think those are pre-flop shove hands. They don't want to see more cards, and the pairs don't want multiple callers
    • AJ, KJ and KQ I also find unlikely. He would want to shove or open stronger with them. They can race most pairs if it gets in pre-flop, but aren't really ahead enough to slow play, play multi-way, or jab at the flop

    So what is still possible?

    • Any pocket below 10s - They are weak enough that he may not have wanted to commit to them with so many people behind, and strong enough that he'd play them. And if the pot goes multi-way, he is priced in such a way that he can get away from a bad flop, but potentially more than double if he hits trips. These are very likely.
    • QJ is possible but not enough to sweat. It is borderline whether it belongs with KQ and KJ above.
    • Any suited connector below QJ and above 34 - Again, these are hands where he might want to commit minimally to the pot, not worry about multi-way, and where the goal would be to flop a big draw and get it in. And then the post flop bet is just a weak jab to clear you out if you whiffed.
    • A suited weak ace - again, places he would be fine stealing and find flopping multi-way, and would not want to commit.
    • A10

    Just about anything else he is probably too short to open with and not short enough to shove. He could take a weak stab at the pot with anything, or trap with the QJ,77 with what looks like a weak stab.

    So, first things first, we're never folding, we're getting it in. The question becomes shove, or be cute and try to let him take another jab.

    We aren't getting away from the hands (QJ, 77) in that range that beat us, so they are irrelevant to the choice.
    None of the hands we are ahead of are likely to call if we shove. Maybe J-10 suited if he doesn't believe us.

    But all of those hands could go ahead on the turn except 5-6 suited, and most can pick up a draw. What's more, if they don't, villain might shut down and give up anyway, so seeing another card is no guarantee of the full amount.

    Now, you have great odds against all of those hands catching up, but every card but a queen is a scare card for this range, and this is a tourney. His stack is big enough to put you on life support, and winning the pot now buys you almost 4 rotations worth of blinds and antes.

    So after doing that exercise, I am back where I started. Shove, and hope it looks like a bully move and gets a call from J-10, A-10, 9s or 8s (in order of likelihood), and otherwise take it down.
     
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  15. TriggerMN

    TriggerMN The Norwegian Hammer

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    Ship it. Because of the betting pattern a big pocket pair is very unlikely, so realistically the only hand you are losing to is AQ.
     
  16. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    Answered in the OP. Villain started with 16k, so has 12.2k back (and if you call thats almost the pot size). Any further action after a call is committing. And I don't see how you get away from any hands which are behind right now.

    For those nervous about this, I would mainly say, if he had shoved on the flop, would you have called? Because if you would have, the only way you are getting away from this is if an Ace hits the turn. Any hand that is ahead is about to decide he has built the pot enough and shove on the turn.
     
  17. Shipppp09

    Shipppp09 Low-Roller

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    Interesting hand.

    As above my initial thought process was to shove over his cbet. You pick up a decent size pot when he folds and continue to grow your stack. These type of mtt's are all about picking up pots and staying alive.

    I personally don't see the point in flatting on the flop. Sure you extract a little more value when he's bluffing/got a weaker holding but are we folding to a 10k shove when a 9,10,J,A, hits the turn? You just leave yourself open to another difficult decision.

    Shove flop, sigh when he calls it off with AKo and gets there.
     
  18. NeonTurtle14

    NeonTurtle14 Hot Dogs and Buns

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    Hero thinks about the play, does some quick math to determine if Calling, V is going to shove next.

    Hero raises all in.

    V tanks, and folds his hand face up: KQ

    Hero shows the Q as he mucks and collects the pot.
     
  19. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    Wow, that is weird betting and a weird fold for KQ.
     
  20. ruralhipster

    ruralhipster High-Roller

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    Agreed it was a strange bet on the flop and an even stranger fold. I guess I'm of the opinion that if you play a hand preflop you should be committed to it after the flop when it connects. In low buy in turbo tournaments I think playing the man can be a little bit overrated.
     
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