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How would you play this

Discussion in 'The Poker Room' started by booker, Apr 23, 2017.

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  1. booker

    booker VIP Whale

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    Scenario
    • Venetian DeepStack a few years ago
    • My stack is about 1/3 below the average stack size and have just been moved to a new table
    • 2-3 players remain before the bubble
    • Blinds /antes just went up
    Hand
    • Middle position limps
    • Cut off limps
    • Button min-raises
    • Hero is in BB with A-Q
    What would you do?
     
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  2. loonytoony

    loonytoony VIP Whale

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    Whats in the pot and what are blinds?
     
  3. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    Button looks fishy as hell. I wouldn't disagree with a fold.
     
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  4. booker

    booker VIP Whale

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    It was a few years ago and that's why I can't exactly remember. I had about 15 bb.
     
  5. NeonTurtle14

    NeonTurtle14 Hot Dogs and Buns

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    I would say you have two plays here, and calling isn't one of them.

    With the raise (even if it is a min raise), and 2 other players in the hand, knowing the money is so close, I'd just get out. If I had more chips I may come along for the ride, but for now I am going to conserve them until the bubble breaks. Easy fold for my game. If you picked 'shove' instead I admire the aggressive line, but I suspect you may be 2nd or 3rd best in this hand.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017
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  6. La$Vega$

    La$Vega$ What happens in Vegas is put on VMB forever

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    Not knowing more details, Lay it down and wait for a better situation. Had A/10 vs: A/Q last night. A/Q min raised, I called. Flop came a 10. With your stack, 2 others to act & bubble scenario, hide out and wait in the bushes!
     
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  7. booker

    booker VIP Whale

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    I call.

    Why? Well, I have my excuses, (not reasons). :( 1) I had been card dead for a couple of hours and kept watching my stack dwindle with lost antes and blinds, so AQ resembled the mortal nuts; 2) It was getting late and my old (in my 60s) brain was getting tired; 3) I told myself that I would fold to a re-pop; 4) I'm an idiot.

    Surprisingly, nobody 4 bet and I got to see a flop of …

    A-9-6 rainbow

    Now, what would you do in my position?
     
  8. NeonTurtle14

    NeonTurtle14 Hot Dogs and Buns

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    At this point, you got the flop you needed. Get the chips in ASAP. Don't get fancy. Shove em. I don't care what kind of action (or lack thereof) you see before your turn. Get them in.
     
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  9. Tarstarkas

    Tarstarkas High-Roller

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    All in!
     
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  10. 93 Octane

    93 Octane Chief bottle washer

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    Check-raise the flop all in
     
  11. La$Vega$

    La$Vega$ What happens in Vegas is put on VMB forever

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    Well, like you said, you we're getting tired and anxious. You needed a Q to flop, A certainly helps, but not to AK. Can't lay down now, shove 'em.
     
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  12. 93 Octane

    93 Octane Chief bottle washer

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    Would be surprised if AK is in play here so check in the hope one of the villains bets and raise all in. Certain there's a draw or two out there but you're probably ahead right now. Know I'm repeating myself but was in a hurry on first response.
     
  13. DownUpUp

    DownUpUp Tourist

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    I tend to agree with TRN here, but your pre-flop play leaves you in sort of a painful situation. I would assume that the players here are more or less rational and slightly more conservative due to the bubble. No one is min-raising 72 or calling with A3o.

    First-in shove: you almost never get a call here unless you're beat. The plausible pre-flop limp/call and min-raise hands that did hit (AK, 99, 66, A9s) are pretty far ahead and those that didn't hit (JJ-, high suited connectors) can't call here. I don't really see KK/QQ playing pre-flop that way, and even if they did, they aren't going to call a shove with 2 other players. You might get some calls here from AJ or AT, but anything below that reads a bit fishy for bubble play to me.
    Check-raise: This is just sort of a delayed version of the first case. In the favorable cases, you get whatever bet the c-bettor put out. In the unfavorable cases, you lose anyway. However this also opens you up to a free turn, if no one is feeling their oats (which they certainly don't seem to be). This only adds room for the other hands to catch up - the cards that improve your hand likely won't encourage action, and since the field is so large, with a range of possibly improving hands, I would guess a free turn might be worse for you than the value the occasional c-bet adds.
    First-in pot size bet: this depends on if you want to try to read your opponent(s) for your life. You're out of position, with minimal actionable info on their hands, and you just moved to the table, so you really have no history. I know I don't trust my cold reads for bubble money =)

    If you had been able to squeeze out the limpers PF, I would be much more in favor of trying a check raise.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017
  14. booker

    booker VIP Whale

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    I check thinking to check-raise all in, but it checks around.

    Flop comes with an Ace. BINGO! (I think) and shove.

    Middle position calls and the others fold. He had pocket 6s for a full house and the board and my queen didn't pair on the river. He barely had me covered.

    This is one of those hands that I should never have played pre flop and I can't figure out why the middle position with the set, nor the min raiser didn't bet on the flop. I hate getting busted so late, but I especially hate getting busted the way that I did. I think that I should have folded or open shoved … probably folded.
     
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  15. NeonTurtle14

    NeonTurtle14 Hot Dogs and Buns

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    Yeah that's why I would have just bailed pre-flop, so close to the money bubble, and knowing there are multiple people already in this hand. As played with the A's on the board you have to get them in and pray. Bummer about the timing when the other guy has the boat, but at that point you see the flop you want anyway.
     
  16. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    TRN said it all. It is shove or fold and that close to the bubble with 3 people who could look you up ....
     
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  17. Shipppp09

    Shipppp09 Low-Roller

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    Guy with 6s played it so much worse then you. Limping mid position off 15bigs when your 2 off the money is so bad.

    As a pre flop decision I agree with everyone else. It's shove or fold. The min raise on the button looks scary as hell but that's when reads and previous hands should come into play. What is this guys stack? Is the aggressive? What previous hands has he shown down? Does he bluff?

    I think a hell of a lot of players (myself included) tighten right up as the bubble approches in order to secure the cash. That's all well and good if that's your main aim but it can severely damage your chances of going deep in the mtt and being able to go for the win. In my opinion the real crushers are exploiting others on and around the bubble and growing there stacks whilst others are letting them dwindle. Don't get me wrong id probably fold in that position but the correct play forgetting the bubble factor would probably be to shove.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017
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  18. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    This makes a certain sense, and I know some tournament pros generally think that way (going for the big money, not min cashes). So worth thinking over. But I think even those pros still also play a survival game especially when short. They may not worry about the bubble, but they would be playing tight here with that stack.

    My problem with the AQ shove is that 15BB when the average is 22 is not THAT desperate yet (depending on ante size). With 3 hands good enough to at least limp behind your chances of picking up callers could go up (depending on their stacks and profiles). It is a good time in the tournament to steal, but not the best situation. And a shove here is basically a semi-bluff, you don't really want a call. So it comes down to reading the other players. Are they likely to be sweating the bubble and unwilling to flip for good odds? What kind of stack is the BB? His min raise could be read as strong (trying to get played back at or called) or weak (taking a stab against stacks hesitant to call).

    So yeah, if you read the situation and table such that you only have to worry about monster hands looking you up, the shove makes good sense to exploit everyone's else's bubble nittyness. But if anyone is likely to decide this is their best moment, then this is not yours.

    In this particular case, with 4.5BB extra dead money sitting in there, the pocket 6's could well have decided to look you up. It may not be the best decision for them with raiser still to act, but neither was limping. A person limping there doesn't strike me as a person folding to sweat the bubble.
     
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