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How would you play this?

Discussion in 'The Poker Room' started by TRN, Mar 1, 2017.

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  1. NeonTurtle14

    NeonTurtle14 Hot Dogs and Buns

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    Figured I'd see what your move is here... a little background then the details of the hand.

    Background:
    This is the first hand of a deep stack main event tournament series at one of the casinos in the midwest region. So I have no reads on anyone, except one player I've played with in tournaments before, but he wasn't in this hand anyway. Villain 1 (V1) is a younger-looking (low-mid 20s) Asian male wearing a hoodie, a scarf, a watch on both wrists, and has earphones on. V2 is a middle aged (would guess mid 50s) woman who spoke with a thick eastern Euro accent. That's all I have in the way of a read on anyone.

    First hand of the tournament, we start with 30,000 chips, level 1 is 25/50 blinds, levels are 60 mins, this is scheduled to be a 3-day tournament. I am in middle position, V1 is on my left, and V2 is the button.

    Preflop:
    Action folds to Hero in MP with AK suited clubs. Hero raises to 150.
    V1 raises to 550, V2 calls, Hero calls.
    Pot: 1650+75 blinds = 1725

    Flop:
    Flop is 9 6 2 rainbow.
    Hero checks, V1 bets 250, V2 calls, Hero calls.
    Pot: 2525

    Turn:
    Turn is 10 of clubs (there was a club on the flop so now I have possible nut flush draw).
    Hero checks, V1 bets 600, V2 calls, Hero raises to 1900.
    V1 calls, V2 calls.
    Pot: 8225

    River:
    River is Ace (suit doesnt matter, cant be a club, I have that card).
    Hero bets 3200, V1 raises to 12500, V2 calls. Hero has about twice that behind (maybe 24k after I made my lead out bet here).

    What is my best move?
    Which street(s) do you play differently?
     
  2. Kolmeseiska

    Kolmeseiska Low-Roller

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    Easy fold, you're never beating V2 nor can you get her to fold. I would've checked the river against 2 opponents and probably folded the flop.
     
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  3. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    Honestly my read of the preflop action would be that V1 is on a high pocket (we'll say queens because you don't cut them off). It seems like an overbet, which suggests they want to isolate. V2 is tougher to read through the whole hand. Really shouldn't be tagging along without a decent hand, but many do. She could have AK,AQ herself, or any pocket hoping for trips and a big early payday, or maybe a suited connector hoping for a mid board that misses the two raisers I probably call pre flop.

    The flop play is tricky. The V1 bet is suddenly a bit low. There are two ways to read that, either setting the right price on a semi bluff, or playing carefully with an overpair. My pre flop read is queen's so we'll stick with that. Still no idea on V2. In position and flat calling a small bet you could be talking another overpair, a set, or 7-8 suited (although that would be a loose pre flop play). Maybe 9's with a 8 or 10 kicker. I think it would be fine to fold or call at that price. Your draws to best hand are pretty thin, and chances to buy it are not great, but it is a low price and you can learn a lot on the turn.

    If I stayed in, no way would I re-pop the turn. 600 into a 3700 pot is a great value for a flush draw, and since it would be backdoor there is a good chance for a river payoff if you hit. But by this time you almost have to be 3rd best and players are not going anywhere. And if what did happen happens ... you hit the overcard river instead of the flush, you want a chance at a cheaper showdown if you think you might be good.

    I would never ever lead out that river. With the overcard I want a chance at a cheap showdown. Assuming it played my way (flat call turn, 4300 pot, reasonable river bet from v1 with v2 calling) I'd stick to my read of v1 (even though I think its wrong now), and have a close decision where I think im usually trailing V2 (unless they are a fish), but the odds may be worth a calldown to see. The way you played it (repop turn, lead river and get a raise call in front), I would not even think about calling. What can v1 raise with there? That overpair could be aces, or he played wild and caught the straight. Squeezed between two players, a raise from V1 is super strong. And V2 I would assume is low trips. Straight is still the nuts and she isn't raising, but again unless you assume idiot ... what can she call with?

    Anyway have not scrolled past OP, but I am guessing in retrospect that V1 finished with either a set of aces or a straight, and V2 had a set of 6's or two pair, 9/10
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2017
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  4. remmerde

    remmerde VMB's Resident Cigar Sommelier

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    I think I'd be out on that flop bet, even with the 9:1 odds. With no read on the players, the 550 preflop 3-bet and button call has to be respected. One of those two players is way ahead of you at that point.

    The check-raise on the turn I'm not sure I do against two players. Yes, it's maybe a good squeeze spot to get V1 to fold a better hand. But a lot of times you're behind V2 and drawing. I don't see how V2 folds many hands that are beating you at that point.

    At the river, is there any chance in the world one pair is the best hand? I don't see it. Only if both your opponents are complete maniacs. And if they are, let them have this pot and you may get those chips back soon enough.
     
  5. fudgewapner

    fudgewapner Low-Roller

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    As someone else said, I'd never lead out on the river, and especially the chosen amount. Might as well go all-in on the river on a stone bluff. Your turn raise says (or implies) that you've got a hand and they stick around, so that needs to mean strength on their end. It isn't a three-way bluff. Another option could have been a big pot-committing semi-bluff raise on the turn, but if you feel you're a better player (which you obv are since you're asking a strat question), then why not pick a much better spot than the first hand?

    Maybe lead out on the flop to quickly see where you stand? V1 only bets 250, so you and V2 have an easy call, but not much info. A lead out bet would have given you more info. Two callers and you then escape on the turn bet. To me it seems like V2 maybe had pocket 9, 6 or 2 and got lucky and is calling along thinking they're good.
     
  6. fudgewapner

    fudgewapner Low-Roller

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    I'd add that if this was a standard $60 tourney, then the other players' actions have less logic to them typically, but a 3-day deep stack there's more trickery and likely more showdown strength, unless you got two people just looking to gamble.
     
  7. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    Ok, kill the suspense. What did they have?

    Because I don't play many deep stack tourneys, and the last few non deep stack tourneys where I have read danger in multiway action, I always end up looking at a ridiculously weak winning hand and saying WTF
     
  8. NeonTurtle14

    NeonTurtle14 Hot Dogs and Buns

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    Thanks for the advice. I agree with nearly everyone so far that I shouldn't have gotten past the flop, in hindsight... different when you're in the middle of it.
     
  9. NeonTurtle14

    NeonTurtle14 Hot Dogs and Buns

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    River:
    River is Ace (suit doesnt matter, cant be a club, I have that card).
    Hero bets 3200, V1 raises to 12500, V2 calls. Hero has about twice that behind (maybe 24k after I made my lead out bet here).
    Hero folds.

    V1 shows QJ of clubs for busted combo draw, queen high.
    V2 shows TT for three-of-a-kind and takes down the pot.

    Hero orders a drink.
     
  10. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    Not surprised by V2. Maybe a bit surprising that she didn't re-pop the turn with a couple draws picked up, but not shocking.

    Shocked at V1 a bit. That is weird play both pre and post flop, and a shocker on the river. I mean, I guess he's just trying to represent the overpair pre and post flop but QJ can hit a lot of expensive second best scenarios, so the overbet early and then the weak c-bet are both odd. And just as we said about your river bet, in what world does V1 think their river bluff is getting through? I mean, I guess they are reading you and trying to squeeze V2, but wow.
     
  11. remmerde

    remmerde VMB's Resident Cigar Sommelier

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    So V1 was indeed a maniac. What do they think two players are going to fold there? Too bad third club didn't come, you for sure would have had his entire stack there.
     
  12. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    Tried to think the hand through from the other two perspectives and I hate V1's play more than ever.

    Pre-flop he can call, but QJ you probably want more callers. You either want to build a pot in case you hit a straight or flush, and want your own investment smaller. First hand of a deep stack tournament, stealing your raise pre flop is pretty much pointless. And building a two way pot when you have a great chance at top pair worst kicker isn't appealing. Then the post flop c-bet is taylor made to get calls, or simply get raised off. Continue properly or fold.

    Feels like a hyperaggressive internet cash player not adjusting his style for a tournament. First hand, deep stack, even if you can pull off those moves, it still wins you little.
     
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  13. NeonTurtle14

    NeonTurtle14 Hot Dogs and Buns

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    What if I told you hyperaggressive V1 came back and won the whole tournament...
     
  14. Wonka

    Wonka Tourist

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    nice playout.. here's a variation to the scenario.. would you have folded if not V2 and only V1 heads up??
     
  15. NeonTurtle14

    NeonTurtle14 Hot Dogs and Buns

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    I would have snap called if it was only V1.
     
  16. remmerde

    remmerde VMB's Resident Cigar Sommelier

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    Ha ha. I would say, "Even maniacs can get hit in the face with the deck at times."
     
  17. TriggerMN

    TriggerMN The Norwegian Hammer

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    I'm actually ok calling the flop just because your implied odds are so good on that tiny bet. The biggest mistake is raising the turn after a raise and a call. With how little your hand improved, that's an insta-fold for me there. V2's call of the turn bet tells me she's going nowhere. Frankly, her call was risky with the board four-flushed. I would raise there and try to punish the draws if I was V2.
     
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