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How would you play this one? AA on textured board vs a "celeb"

Discussion in 'The Poker Room' started by TRN, Apr 26, 2017.

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  1. NeonTurtle14

    NeonTurtle14 Hot Dogs and Buns

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    Tournament is a $550 one-day MTT NLHE at Wynn, last summer. Has around 600 runners. Starting stack is 15000, levels are 40 minutes. This hand takes place in level 2 (75/150 blinds).

    Villain is William Hung (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Hung), the comical personality from one of the early seasons of American Idol, who went on to become more of a joke than a well-known singer. Apparently he plays poker? Seems like an aggressive player at the table who makes comments like "I play to win, not just cash!" after making seemingly unnecessary 3-bets and 4-bets. Very talkative and personable, fairly laid back funny guy.

    For the hand in question, hero has about 20k chips after taking a nice pot with flush over set in level 1, and villain has about 14500 after losing a couple blinds and limped pots.

    Hero (UTG+1) opens for 450 with red AA. Villain (CO) calls, blinds and everyone else folds. Pot: 1125

    Flop: 78Q (two are spades)

    Hero bets 800, villain says "you didn't hit that" and calls. Pot: 2725

    Turn is J spades. Hero bets 1550, villain says "you didn't hit that straight" and raises to 5000.

    Hero?
     
  2. carolineno

    carolineno VIP Whale

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    Without knowing the range of hands villain plays, and knowing myself, I'd probably shove here, since I'd be aggravated at this point, and we have him covered. Chatty Cathys really get on my nerves. You didn't improve, but can we fold AA here? Opening for 450 doesn't scream AA. He could have made a set, but he also sounds like a turkey. I wonder what villain puts us on...
     
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  3. 93 Octane

    93 Octane Chief bottle washer

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    Thinking you're about 60/40...villain has a Q or J with straight and flush draws..the question is if the hero is "feeling froggy" at this juncture :popcorn:
     
  4. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    Tricky spot.

    What do you really beat on that board? You are only winning vs AQ, KQ, or a bluff.

    If he had 9T he got there. Suited spades, he got there. QJ suited, he passed you. If he flopped a set, you are behind.


    His talk seems to me to be what a chatty middling player would say when they wanted to goad you into more action. Represent that you are playing light, and get AQ or an overpair to keep going. When you mentioned him saying it on the flop I thought maybe a set. But a draw also makes sense, because his talk also works as a float if you missed, creating a chance to semi-bluff a missed turn.

    Moving all in over the top does not seem great. It will fold out a bluff or AQ, KQ, and you want those hands in and betting. Flushes and straights are more his range than yours, so QJ, 8's, or 9's may well call you. That leaves the only hand your are beating and want out is something like an AsQx or As9x semi bluff.

    Against a lot of players on that board I would just fold. His tendency to 3 and 4 bet light makes things a little trickier though. He really could be trying to pick off a whiffed AK. I think choices are call, check river, call any if not a spade, or fold now. Your hand is a bluffcatcher which also beats some maniac top pair play. I think this early, and above an average stack, I probably let it go now. That may be nitty, but this is a decision for your tournament unless your call/check slows him down on the river.
     
  5. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    I forgot to ask, which 2 cards on the flop were the spades? That might help a little in figuring out what he has (if the Q was a spade it makes some made hands and backdoor draws less likely I think).
     
  6. kansaisupra

    kansaisupra Low-Roller

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    I'd like to know this as well.

    disclaimer, I am not a tournament player so I can't speak to intelligently here but, here is what I think.

    So my first thought, since you said he is an aggressive player is, would he raise flop with any draws, or flush draws. Obviously, this board hits his range rather hard, but if he had a flush draw, T9, do you think he'd just call or raise?

    Going by what you said, I would assume he'd raise with his draws and when he says, "you didn't hit any of that" makes me think hes comfortable with his hand but he isn't super strong.

    The turn is the worst card we can see and we bet and yet he still raises. His language on the turn leads me to believe he is pretty relaxed. Most bluffers don't say anything when bluffing.

    As a cash game players, I'd just shove and move it in. But since this is a tournament, I think I'd just fold and move on.
     
  7. NeonTurtle14

    NeonTurtle14 Hot Dogs and Buns

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    Board up to this point is:

    7s 8c Qs Js
     
  8. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    Yeah, looking at the combos some more I am even more sure it is a fold.

    Tons of combos which have you crushed.

    Most likely hand to play this way that you're beating is AQ, not many combos thanks to your blockers, and half of them have a backdoor flush draw. The board Q being a spade makes KQ less likely unless he would cold call an EP raiser with KQo. I don't see any other KQ raising the turn (even with K spades its unlikely)

    Other than that you are really only beating bluffs, and most of those are still semi bluffs (99, TT, AT, AJ with spade ace).
     
  9. remmerde

    remmerde VMB's Resident Cigar Sommelier

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    Typical amateur 3rd/4th level* thinking on the "you didn't hit that" kind of talk is to look weak and induce you to call or play back. So unless you think he's capable of 5th leveling you with that kind talk on a pure bluff, I read it as a big hand trying to look like he's just bullying you with a weak holding.

    But perhaps the guy who turned a ridiculous talent show audition into a minor celebrity status is living his entire life on a fifth level and higher over the rest of us.

    In general, I don't think there's a lot of money to be made in poker assuming your opponent is 5th leveling you. Fold.

    (*Using Sklansky's level definitions here.)
     
  10. Crambone

    Crambone Gnaeus Pompey Magnus

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    You just know the Ace of Spades will be the river card improving his 8d8s
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. Patman

    Patman VIP Whale

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    Fold - You are likely behind or drawing dead (2 pair, set, maybe straight or flush)
    - if you aren't behind, villain likely to have a number of outs
    - only the Ac would improve your hand without either not changing much or getting worse
    - villain commented you didn't hit and you still bet again so he would expect you had something and still raised (if drawing probably would just call)
    - Hero has only invested 2800 of 20k so far, villain has 8250 left after his raise
    - you will have to call an all in on the river without the nuts

    I would only continue if my read was a bluff or that villain was raising lite
    - if playing I would raise 4k with the intention to likely call an all-in but with the ability to evaluate villain's all in and save the 4250. You might get villain to fold if he is bluffing and figures you are pot committed.
    - puts pressure back on villain for likely his tournament life unless he has the nut flush (he still would have 8250 if he folded)
    - you still have the option to fold an all in with 10k+
     
  12. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    I don't like the 4k raise idea at all even if I think he's bluffing. If you're raising (which I wouldn't), shove and pray.

    If you did this move, the price you would be turning down if he went all in would be ludicrous. You'd have gone from making a raise assuming a bluffing, to turning down more than 6-1 odds on a call, just so you can have 10k chips left instead of 5k.
     
  13. Shipppp09

    Shipppp09 Low-Roller

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    Gross spot.

    Would be interested to hear your thought process for leading the turn. Js is probably the worst card in the deck. I like a c/c on the turn and reassess on the river.

    As played its a super tough spot. Wouldn't make much of his speech play. Seen this kinda thing many a time with the outcomes varying from stone cold bluff to the nuts.

    Guess we just fold here and never mention this hand again...oh wait...:D
     
  14. carolineno

    carolineno VIP Whale

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    I dunno, it still seems like a nitty fold at level 2. Obviously i don't play these!
     
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  15. TriggerMN

    TriggerMN The Norwegian Hammer

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    The betting pattern tells the villain exactly what the hero has, and the villain is putting more money in. Does the villain really think he can push the hero off his hand with a bluff here in level 2? No, I think the villain is begging for the hero to put more money in the pot.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2017
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  16. Patman

    Patman VIP Whale

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    To clarify, my comment was a fold. Raising was only if I was going to continue to play.

    As you commented turning down an all in would be ludicrous so a $4k raise would basically have the same affect as and all in for $8250. This would also be the case if he were bluffing.
    If Villain went all in I would probably still call as I had said which then would be the same as shoving but would give you one more chance to consider it.. It would still give me the option to fold a 6-1 which, if Villain had 2 pair you have 6 outs, or a set 2 outs: straight or flush, you don't have the price to call.
    I believed hero was behind already but if I didn't I might at that point i might still find a fold because if hero is behind at best would only have a 1-9 chance of winning and likely even worse. Villain still had 8250 or 55 BB, so if he is willing to shove and risk his tournament life when you are most likely priced in you are likely at least a 1-9 dog.
    At blinds of 150, 10k is significant compared to 5k.

    Hmmm, I think I contradicted myself there. Now I'm thinking maybe I would fold when I raised and he shoved.

    If I were playing this hand, I probably would have bet more on the flop and the turn and then been more certain of a fold if he still raised.

    .
     
  17. NeonTurtle14

    NeonTurtle14 Hot Dogs and Buns

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    I just wanted to see where I was. I felt like if I made a decent bet and he just called, he was chasing or had something a little weaker. If he folded, great. If he raised, I'd have to figure out what to do :)
     
  18. NeonTurtle14

    NeonTurtle14 Hot Dogs and Buns

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    ...picking back up....

    Hero tanks and asks Villain "how high is your flush?"... villain responds with "higher than your pocket aces".

    ... now what does Hero do?
     
  19. 93 Octane

    93 Octane Chief bottle washer

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    He's talking a lot and has put you on the correct hand and therefore trying to push you around...

    I'm sticking with my first assumption of one pair with flush and straight outs.
     
  20. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    Still fold.
     
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