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How would you play it?

Discussion in 'The Poker Room' started by Shipppp09, Jun 7, 2017.

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  1. Shipppp09

    Shipppp09 Low-Roller

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    Got a hand that I played yesterday.

    1/3 Aria 6am 8 handed.

    Hero $300

    Table is pretty solid, no real spots at the table apart from a super fish who is away for a smoke during the hand in question.

    Utg opens to $10 and we receive calls from utg +1,CO and btn. We look down at 45s in the bb. Hero calls.

    Flop Ks 10s 4h

    Checks around.

    Turn 2d.

    Check to CO who bets $17. Hero flats the $17. Other two guys fold.

    River 4d.

    Hero is first to act. What is his play?

    How are you playing pre,flop and turn?
     
  2. NeonTurtle14

    NeonTurtle14 Hot Dogs and Buns

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    Pre - I am fine with the pre-flop call, with that many having called. Toss $7 more in to win $51. Easy call at that point in my opinion.

    Flop - check around - I am good with you leading out checking - interesting no one fired with that many in the pot. That's OK - good for you to catch up.

    Turn - $51 in the pot, a $17 value bet is tough to pass up... betting $17 to win $85 now - the price is still right - you're really going for the flush, and have other outs with your pair. By this point you are feeling good if you get any spade, 4, or maybe 5. Let's assume if you're behind you have 18 outs to catch up. Pretty good price for that.

    River - with $85 in the pot, I would lead out for 2/3 to 3/4 of the pot - maybe something like $55-$65, I believe your hand is disguised here, he probably doesn't have you on a 4... maybe a busted flush draw bet to chase him out. Hopefully he has something like AK/KQ/KJ or a busted flush himself. I am probably leading for $60ish like I said, then calling most raises too - if he has something unlucky like KK or TT or 22, so be it. I'd be less surprised if he had something like AA or QQ or JJ - just a big pair that whiffed.

    I don't have much info on the villain in the CO spot. But in a 1/3 game I am going to assume these players aren't necessarily raising only with premium hands unless you have a better read on him by this point.
     
  3. NeonTurtle14

    NeonTurtle14 Hot Dogs and Buns

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    PS hopefully you're leaving some $ in play for me....... I'll be there soon
     
  4. The Rumor

    The Rumor VIP Whale

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    Call pre was bad to me OOP in a five way pot. Suited connectors go down in value the more people play the hand. You lose big pots with this more often than you think. I'd rather call heads up or 3 ways.

    We also don't know stack sizes, which is helpful in evaluating this sort of thing.

    I'm ok with checking flop to play a little slower. Yeah, our equity is good, but the sorts of hands that continue have plenty of equity against us (better pairs and flush draws)

    We lost some equity on the turn, let's keep stacks wide by checking. Call is standard, we have to be good often enough.

    I'm never checking the river with a hand this good. No need to go crazy, something like $60. You haven't given us any reads so I'd do something standard.

    I agree that I'd probably call most river raises absent a read.
     
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  5. Shipppp09

    Shipppp09 Low-Roller

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    I must admit the hand is pretty standard up until the river. Here's where it gets interesting.

    I had not long been in the game and the chip runner didn't arrive with my chips so the dealer had given me 2x $100 chips and a stack of 5s.

    River is pretty gin for us, super disguised and literally every draw known to man missed which is our likely holding based on how the previous streets played out.

    I have around $245 but because of the chip denominations I had, I can't really make a decent size value bet without breaking a $100 chip.

    I decide to 'sheepishly' and silently overbet the pot sliding a $100 over the line. Villain asks $100? Hero tries to give him a less then convincing nod.

    Villain gives it 5 seconds and shoves all in. Covering hero.

    Hero?
     
  6. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    Options are check, bet small to incite a bluff raise, or bet big.

    Check is a bit awkward. Villain could have bet a lot of non top pairs on the turn, and could show them down on the river. And if he leads out weak, it is awkward to raise, as you won't get many calls from worse, and don't want to see a 3 bet.

    Small bet only makes sense if you think villain bet that size on the turn with a bluff or with another spade and/or straight draw, AND you think he won't give up on the river.


    I think Villain is tilted towards thin value hands, and the offsuit 4 is the perfect card to get paid.

    I would bet 3/4 pot to pot. I feel like you can get looked up by even a pair of tens, as the flat call on that small sizing as you will look like a busted draw.

    There is a slight risk of getting re-raised, but villain does not have that many nutted hands. Kings would raise pre. TT probably usually bets the flop after preflop raiser checks with that many players on a 2 suit flop with broadway draws. A4 probably only calls pre if suited and there is 1 combo of that. That leaves 22 for hands beating you.
     
  7. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    Just read the next step.

    I think its a call. You only need to be ahead 25% of the time.

    3 combos of 22, 3 of TT, 1 of A4 suited. Can he have any other better 4's? Can he be re-bluffing? He could legit think he is value betting with an under repped AK or with KT (although they both would often bet the flop just like TT). Unless you have history to indicate he would never run a bluff like this or only value raises this spot with a boat, I think its worth the call.

    And probably about 50-60% of the time you are beat.
     
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  8. kansaisupra

    kansaisupra Low-Roller

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    I think calling the extra $7 is fine. Playing OOP is not idea but multi way. I think its okay.

    The main question I would ask myself first, is, am I capable of laying down trips (4x vs a higher 4x) or laying down a small made flush to a higher made flush. If I am okay or my bankroll, mental state would be okay to lose, flush over flush or 4X to a higher 4X (trips I mean) then I am okay will calling.

    With 45 suited, obviously we are never making the nut flush or highest two pair so its very possible we can get coolered with these hands.

    So you said this game is "solid" I am not sure what your definition of solid is but if these were a weak game, like everyone limps, nobody 3!, people are here to "see flops" then I'd probably take a different line.

    If this game was a "lets limp in" "lets see flops" type of game, I'd play it like you did. Check flop, check call turn, and I need more info on CO to make a decision.

    But since you said its "solid"

    I think I'd lead out flop. Also I am assuming you have 4s5s.?

    I'd probably lead out $30. We have huge equity against anyone and we can get KX, QJ, TX to call. Hard to say what will happen next but that is what I would do.

    AP, how much does CO off have? What kind of reads do we have? His $17 turn bet seems pretty small. 22 makes sense, maybe he has 24 even though there only 1 combo left.

    He could have missed flush or straight draw, a better 4 or 22. I think if he has 22 or 42 he bet more on the turn. I'd probably end up calling.
     
  9. NeonTurtle14

    NeonTurtle14 Hot Dogs and Buns

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    I'd call the shove, trips is the nuts here as far as I'm concerned. You may be on the unfortunate end of one of the pocket pair combos that boated up but I feel like we're up against something like AK or AA here.
     
  10. The Rumor

    The Rumor VIP Whale

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    We only have to be good about 1/4 of the time. I lean towards call but feel sick about it
     
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  11. bigalbr

    bigalbr VIP Whale

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    Regarding the black chip, you can always just state your bet amount and put the black chip in. The dealer will rebate the balance to you from the pot.

    If you don't want to play for stacks here, definitely don't overbet the pot. Betting $100 here commits you to the pot and pretty much tells all boats that you'll pay off. I think that you're probably beat here. It's a terrible spot for villain to bluff. He's only got $27 in this pot and you're showing a lot of strength. If he's got a bluff catcher, he should just call. I think you probably have to call here. If you fold, make sure you don't bluff until you show down something decent. A fold makes you look like you bluffed and got caught. Don't expect much bluff equity until you correct that.
     
  12. meyers67

    meyers67 VIP Whale

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    +1
     
  13. Shipppp09

    Shipppp09 Low-Roller

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    Picking back up

    Hero goes into the tank.

    As previously mentioned we need to be good 25% of the time here. I'm most worried about 22 as that makes the most sense pre,post and turn and river. I doubt villain plays KK or 1010 this way and don't really see what A4 type hands he has as we have the 4s.

    Ultimately there just wasnt enough hands that have us beat to fold.

    Hero tosses in the call and villain proudly turns over AA like it's the nuts.

    I show my 45 and villian almost explodes out his chair.

    Hero scoops a nice pot but has to deal with villain staring him down and shaking his head
    for the next 2 orbits :haha:

    Gotta love poker ay!
     
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  14. NeonTurtle14

    NeonTurtle14 Hot Dogs and Buns

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    Definitely not sitting there to make friends. Just chips. Nice hand, well played.
     
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  15. spicole

    spicole No shirt, no shoes... NO DICE!

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    Agree - and the villain misplayed his hand on every street.
     
  16. Hurricane

    Hurricane Eat, drink, be merry and roll points

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    Well played and agree with how you approached the hand. V should have forced your money in earlier, and having given you the opportunity to make a hand, had no right to be upset (other than with himself) when you did so. Also his raise on the river borders on insanity.
     
  17. spicole

    spicole No shirt, no shoes... NO DICE!

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    Let's see... the "hey, let's get tricky with AA in a multi-way pot" Villain decides to:
    Pre-flop: overcall with AA in position after an UTG raise and call from UTG+1;
    Flop: check when 4th to act on a board with two high cards and a flush draw;
    Turn: bet $17 in a $51 pot, almost giving express pot odds for anyone chasing the flush draw;
    River: (incredibly) raise with just an overpair (er, Aces up) after Hero finally shows aggression. What hand worse than AA did he think was going to call the river raise? AK? KQ? If he thought you were bluffing with something like a busted flush draw he should have just called.
     
  18. Shipppp09

    Shipppp09 Low-Roller

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    Fwiw I think he played it absolutely awful, I would have done the opposite to him on every single street. That being said, he played it that badly that I would have almost always called the shove with any Kx and even maybe even an A10 depending on reads. If I had of stacked off with a Kx type hand would we be calling his play genius? Not in my book but the way he flipped his cards after I called made me think he thought he'd played me like a fiddle.

    I suppose we all think about the game different no matter what stakes we play.
     
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  19. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    Yeah, it takes awhile for fools like this to learn their lesson. I mean, he will probably learn the trapping aces with flat calls lesson first.

    But overplaying and shoving rivers thinking his overpair is a value bet could get a lot of false confirmation as an accidental bluff. So he will need to get stacked quite a few times before he realizes the problem is him, and he should probably look at the board.
     
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  20. joshrocker

    joshrocker VIP Whale

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    I came to this late but I liked every street except your $100 bet. It's already been explained that you can verbalize your bet in case you're caught with nothing but big chips but I'd have put that black out there and made an irresistible value bet of $50 or so. You're probably getting called by just about any pair and even possibly AK if you have a sheriff at the table.

    There can be value in overbetting a pot depending on your image and how likely the rest of the table is to "keep you honest" but in this case a nice simple value bet to get paid something seems like the better move.
     
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