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How would you play it? Flopped the nuts, out of position... how to get max value?

Discussion in 'The Poker Room' started by TRN, May 12, 2017.

  1. TRN

    TRN Poker Snob

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    While the title kind of spoils it, I want to focus on the right way to play this hand to extract maximum value.

    Game is $1/$3 NLHE cash game.

    Hero has a very LAG image with wide opening range, and has taken down some pots with low suited connectors, and recently won a 3-way all in hand with J-9, flopped up-and-down straight draw, and hit the J on the river for the highest pair. Hero has $500.

    Villain is a reg I've played with before. He's a younger kid that runs his mouth a lot, and if he gets outplayed he moves to a new table instantly. V has $600. Entitled / snowflake / internet kid / millennial, all descriptive words which help paint the picture.

    In this hand, hero is UTG and V is UTG+1.

    Hero gets AK and raises pre-flop to $14. V raises to $34. Blinds fold, hero calls. Pot is $72.

    Flop QJT rainbow.

    What is hero's action post-flop?
     
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  2. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    Hmm, that was a small 3-bet.

    Villain raised UTG+1, which probably takes all the low pockets out of play. What he is left with is sets, the same hand you have, top pair top kicker with a straight draw, or overpairs with a straight draw. I discount bluffs almost entirely due to position.

    So I'm pretty sure we're leading out here. He is calling 1 street with just about his whole range, and could well be raising sets. Your AK is actually a tad under-represented due to the flat call out of position.

    I'd make the bet reasonably big. Maybe you'd go a bit smaller if you were looking to incite a bluff but villain has a hand here.

    I'd bet as much as full pot I think. I was thinking a tad smaller, but this is the street he almost always at least calls and so is key to maxing value.

    It is also a big enough bet that if he raises with a set or with an overpair+draw, it could even be a jam, and he will likely feel committed even if it is not, so you can probably get it in.

    If he flat calls you may have to check the turn. The more vulnerable hands in his range probably won't call a big turn bet. So you check, he likely checks back, and you bet half to 2/3 pot on the river. A 9,K,A on the turn or river could potentially get you paid (and at worse a split pot). Worst thing to see would be a paired board, but again the board is so connected that the hope would be your flop bet made all the sets play fast.
     
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  3. meyers67

    meyers67 High-Roller

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    Check the flop - give him a chance to make a continuation bet.
     
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  4. booker

    booker VIP Whale

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    Great question. I've more holes in my game than a sieve and know that I often lose value in these types of hands.

    Here is what I would consider against a V with his image (utilizing my old man vibe):
    • I would bet about $30-$40 and hope for a raise where I would pause … then call. (Of course, I hope he might shove or make a huge bet to get it all in here.)
    • If the turn is a 9 or under, I would check, hoping for a big bet that I would raise and hope for an All In from him, or a raise where I could shove.
    • If it's a small turn bet, I would just call.
    • However, if the turn brings a pair, I would make about a 1/3 pot size bet while my butt is taking a nip out of my chair.
    • If there is no pair by the river and no possible flush, I would make a bet of about 1/4-1/3 of the pot and hope for a raise to get it all in.
    As I stated, getting good value from hands like this is arguably the weakest part of my game. Educate me!
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2017
  5. TRN

    TRN Poker Snob

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    ...picking back up...

    Hero bets $50. Not going to dance around with this guy, he'll call if he has anything with paint, V snap calls (his chips are literally in the pot before I can count out the $50 I announced). Pot: $172

    Turn: Q J T 9 (and completes the rainbow)

    Hero action?
     
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  6. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    Pocket kings just improved to worse, and AQ now goes up and down,

    But I still think we slow down now. Any set just got a whole lot more nervous. Betting a second street is showing a lot of strength, and again with utg open and utg+1 3 bet called, it is tough to look like a turn bet is ever a bluff. Your weakest hands should be looking for a cheap showdown.

    So I think we check this one. Make it look like if we somehow were bluffing we gave up, and otherwise we are looking to show down cheap. He could take a big stab for value with kings. AQ has value plus an improved draw if behind to a set. Showing weakness might pull a bet out from a set, as KK or 78,88 is not that likely given your play pre and post flop.
     
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  7. Dobber2320

    Dobber2320 Tourist

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    Sounds like you have played with this player a fair amount. I think that he sniffs out a check here as a big hand. With him calling that quickly I still make a bet here. I would bet around $70 or so and give him a shot at thinking that his hand is still good. I assume that he has seen you three barrel bluff here before so the bet should not surprise him. I would expect a quick call and a hand like KQ offsuit - he thinks that the 9 just made his hand and will keep calling.
     
  8. TRN

    TRN Poker Snob

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    ....picking back up....

    Hero's experience playing with this V and knowing hero is ahead (worst case tied) in this hand, hero is going to fire again and try to make it look like bluffing or buying the pot. V isn't going anywhere. If V folds to a bet now, hero would be beside himself.

    Hero bets $200.

    V min-raises which is only a few red chips short of putting hero all in. Hero snap-reshoves for the last red chips, and V calls.

    River: Q J T 9 8

    V sounds upset and says "I guess we're chopping now" and shows TT.

    No you donk, we are not chopping. Actually all that was said while tabling hero's hand was "Nuts."

    Crazy board, even crazier he didn't have me even on a lone king. I asked him what he had me on there, he said with my calling his 3-bet preflop he thought I had Aces. (Half right!)
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2017
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  9. TRN

    TRN Poker Snob

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    So while this aggressive line worked out for this villain - I agree with some of the commentary about slowing down and setting the trap. That was not the right play for this particular villain, but for 80% of the people I encounter, you would have probably been spot-on.
     
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  10. Jerry Snuggit

    Jerry Snuggit Tourist

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    You led out by betting $14, he made it $34 (a small 3-bet, as Nevyn immediately pointed out)... he thinks anyone who would call $20 more must have AA???? Villain here pretty much sucks at poker.

    Well played, TRN, but I agree with Meyers that a check might be highest EV overall. Yes, you risk a street with no betting at all, however that's unlikely if he has a big hand, because he is last to act and also doesn't want a street with no action. When opponent has a set, it's pretty likely that all the money gets in the pot... your real question is how to get the most when he's holding 2-pair or AQ. If you check, he cannot check that board without appearing extremely weak (low pocket pair) or a bad player attempting to hide strength (QQ or AK)

    ps. I've lost money my last 5 sessions.
     
  11. TRN

    TRN Poker Snob

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    Yeah I don't disagree - 8 or 9 times out of 10 that's definitely what I need to do. With this guy, there's no need to trap, and as you pointed out, he isn't always playing very smart.
     
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  12. TRN

    TRN Poker Snob

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    So for the sake of discussion, let's say I'm the one who had TT and he had the AK (hypothetical, I am not letting the cat out of the bag now or anything).

    Let's go street by street and how should I have played?
     
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  13. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    Are you saying if you had TT in your position, or if you were in villain's position with his hand, with your actions coming at him?
     
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  14. TRN

    TRN Poker Snob

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    In my position.
     
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  15. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    Yeah, that would be a tough hand to play in your position. The straight was actually more disguised for you than it would be for villain.

    Villain 3-betting UTG+1 should really be on QQ,KK,AA, AK. Even with your loose image there are 8 unknown hands to act behind. But with the weaker 3 bet size, which isolates but is kind of non-committal, we can maybe assume a somewhat wider range.
    But still, we are adding things like AQ, AJ suited, JJ, but discounted.

    And we have no A or K blockers. So if we assume the premium 3 bet range, we have 19 combos that have you dominated, 6 which are behind with 10 outs, and 6 behind with 6 outs. Not a good spot.
    If we give the wider range, we add 3 more hands that dominate you, and 15 that you lead but still have 4 outs.

    I'd be playing to keep the pot small and manageable unless the board paired.

    How to do that, however, depends a lot on what we know of villain. How trappy would he play the hands ahead of us? And what size bet would he make?

    By default, I think the play is check call, check fold. If villain is super trappy and would check back the straight at you this line is even better.

    But if villain tends to size post flop bets on the large side, AND you think he would not raise the flop whether behind or ahead, a 1/2 pot bet could have merit. I mean, the larger sets probably always raise you, but if he would flat call with the straight, making the smaller lead out could save you money, and also help get you paid if the board pairs on the turn. Kind of weird to talk about a set like a semi bluff.

    When the turn comes a 9, no matter the flop line, it is check-fold time.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2017
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  16. The Rumor

    The Rumor High-Roller

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    My strongest feeling on this whole hand is you absolutely have to bet this flop

    I would just bet/bet/bet here honestly, I don't agree with slowing down on the turn. I'd rather get two streets of value from a set or Kx than try to squeeze one more street out of AQ
     
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  17. kansaisupra

    kansaisupra Low-Roller

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    I tried not to read the rest since I was late to the party but here goes.

    If I flopped the nuts with AK on this QJT board, assuming its rainbow, against the Villain you described, I'd probably lead out because this type of player would probably interpret my donk bet as some "where am I at type bet"

    #1, I'd donk lead as large as possible, obviously hoping to get raised or at least called.

    #2 The main reason I'd donk is this flop smacks his 3! range right in the face. Its possible he could have AA or KK but we block half those combos, so QQ, JJ, TT are right in his 3! range.

    #3, Any A, K, or 9 probably slows him down significantly. We are basically want 7-2 cards on the turn. So thats why I would lead flop.

    #4 I'd lead pot on flop, turn and river assuming the board doesn't pair getting stacks in rather easily.

    At 200 BB, I'd bet as much as possible Pot or more on every street.
     
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  18. Demo84

    Demo84 Tourist

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    Check-Raise flop, bet, bet. He can have all the sets, some 2 pairs and Lots of pair with straight draw type hands. So we want to get as much value as possible from these hands early before the board gets worse and/or pairs. If he checks behind just go big turn and river.
     
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  19. kps

    kps High-Roller

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    But was he wearing a hoodie? Lol
     
  20. remmerde

    remmerde Low-Roller

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    I'm not a fan of slow playing big hands in general. I believe at this level game, the scenarios where you slow play a monster and let an opponent free-card their way to a second best hand that will stack off to you are really, really rare.

    In hands like this, where your big hand isn't blocking the board and there's cards that connect with a lot of ranges, I prefer to bet early to start building a pot. Give your opponent an opportunity to get married to an iffy hand. And if your opponent already has some 2nd best hand he may slow play it himself, and then you're leaving a lot of money on the table in the long run playing it slow. If my bets get him to hero-fold a set here, well then, the player is skilled enough that he wasn't going to pay me off no matter how I played it.

    I think only when you have a hand like a flopped full house, where the flop and your hole cards are essentially blocking everyone else from having some kind of second best/calling hand, should you check/slow play/give free cards.

    But of course, as is often the case in poker, it depends. So I think TRN's read on the opponent and history with him are very relevant to the decision making process.
     
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