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Slots high limit slot players - question about players cards

Discussion in 'Slots' started by trig, Jul 15, 2013.

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  1. trig

    trig Low-Roller

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    As far as the 'gotten away with it for so long w/o notoriety'. My guess is someone filed a lawsuit at some point and the judge saw the documents that allows it to happen, thus it was thrown out. (this is pure speculation) I relate it to all the 'fine print' at the bottom of commercials on tv that are impossible to read or the radio commercials with some guy talking so fast that there is no way you'll catch it all.

    Why is this so hard to believe? We're talking casinos here.

    I can assure you, I'll cite the exact document and words that allows this to happen. Just give me some time.
     
  2. Kickin

    Kickin Flea

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    Don't read the book Addiction By Design in that case, it may put you over the edge and swear off any machine games including video poker. Good post by the way about the legal question trig's post raises.
     
  3. dtm615

    dtm615 Tourist

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    Removing the bold that caused each and every one of us to miss this, he called bs on his own theory. 1. here clearly says that active software is the different GAMES available (i.e the different types of poker) and buried within more of the text says that there is no configuration change such as payback percentage. I think we may be able to go back to our lives.
     
  4. craps1

    craps1 Low-Roller

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    And I got abducted by aliens last week. And jimmy Hoffa is buried under the meadowlands.

    Thanks for coming:nono:
     
  5. Boogaloo

    Boogaloo Low-Roller

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    This falls apart if you think about it for more than a moment.

    How much would proof of this be worth in the right (or wrong) hands? Ten million? A hundred? Even more?

    A guy who has proof of this has several options -

    1. go to a whale that's just lost money, and offer him the proof so he can take the casino to court and win back his losses plus millions in penalties while getting a cut of the action as a 'consulting' or 'expert witness' fee for giving testimony during the trial.

    or

    2. go the the casino and demand hush money. If this came out in a Wikileaks-style leak, that casino would pretty much instantly be as good as bankrupt, since no-one who heard this would be dumb enough to go there ever again.

    or

    3. just skip the extortion part and just leak it as a whistleblower and almost certainly get a book/movie deal out of the equation while getting immense personal fame.

    As people have mentioned previously, a conspiracy like this would require at least hundreds, if not thousands (or tens of thousands) of people knowing about it. It's very unlikely that they're all paid well enough for life to keep a secret like this when they could stand to benefit immensely from not doing so (all while revealing what is almost certainly an illegal practice, so they'd be pretty immune to reprisals).
     
  6. maximus56k

    maximus56k Tourist

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    Historically I am sure there were PLENTY of players thinking there was no way they could be cheated in Vegas. In the early years my family was astounded that the MOB was running Vegas. I laughed at my Mom when she talked about it.

    Listen I don't think it falls apart that much. I live in a technology rich area and have quite a few hacker buds and when I see what these little lunatics are capable of I cringe. Not just what they are capable of only, but what they can put right in front of inspectors and bosses and never get caught.
    I watched a local county spend MILLIONS encrypting a digital scanner network so they could not be monitored by the public. One of these guys that sits around looking at 4 giant monitors at once took less than 1 DAY and he was back listening to it. he Sheriff's office had no idea.
    And sadly it takes one of theses guys to trade side so you can catch them. It's not paranoid to think that BIG VEGAS could gather together quite an elite group of these techno nuts to externally manipulate a clean system
    for them. They find one of these little guys and tell him "here....use these chips in these machines through this existing network and make it where we can bump the percentages when we want. Or better yet make it where the system recognizes players who spend more. You have a limitless budget. And now hide it where Jesus couldn't find it.....and if someone does.... no one will find you!" They get a monthly payment instead of a one time payment from extorting it.
    Your average joe inspector isn't going to find these things. The NGC would have to spend huge money to employee a crack team of computer geniuses to dig and dig IF they had some idea something wasn't right.

    Again, I am no Alex Jones! But I have seen things done with today's computers and internet technology that when you add mega money
    can do almost anything.
     
  7. Kickin

    Kickin Flea

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    maximus I agree with you that it may very well be technologically possible to manipulate the system in certain ways. But that isn't what trig is claiming, he is claiming that it is LEGAL. That's an entirely different argument and the regulatory text he posted to defend his claim seems to stipulate the exact opposite.

    Now he is saying he will post some additional regulatory text that does imply it is allowed so let's wait and see what he shows us.
     
  8. Someone

    Someone High-Roller

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    machines that have a chip that holds the pay table whether connected to a players club network or not will not be able to have the pay tables changed remotely

    I would be almost certain the chip is either ROM or PROM which is read only memory or programmable read only memory

    a ROM chip is hard coded and can never be changed period....it is not even programmed it is built with the information and that is that

    a PROM chip is programmed, but only one time....after that initial "burn" the chip is what it is and it cannot be changed

    an EPROM erasable programmable read only memory chip can be reprogrammed, but it has to be removed from the machine and reprogrammed

    it is very easy to tell the types of chips from one another and it would also be very easy to tell if a machine did have a programmer in it for an EPROM if the machine happened to have an EPROM

    it is not like software where you just hack something and you are changing bits of electronic data......you have to have easy to identify hardware in the machine to accomplish this and the types of chips are easy to identify as well......it would be a MAJOR undertaking to find and convince a manufacture to somehow produce a chip that looked like one of the other types and it is probably not really even technically possible to do so and it would be extremely cost prohibitive to do so and if it was done you can bet the manufacturer is going to market those chips on the open market (for a number of reasons) and not just keep the secret for the casino industry and it is not something that can be done in a back lab somewhere

    it is like an old crystal radio VS a modern programmable radio.....in the crystal radio you have to pull out a crystal and insert a different one to get the radio onto a different frequency there is no way to get around that and to change that the guts of the radio would look entirely different and it would not have crystals at all it would have an EPROM

    and even if an older machine did have an EPROM in it and it did have the ability to program that EPROM it would still have to have a very noticeable amount of complex wiring and circuitry going from the players club card reader/network connection to the location on the main board where the EPROM would be.....it is not something that one or two or even a few wires added and hidden would suffice because the information is not able to flow like that

    and really even on a modern machine that is on a server and does have the ability to change pay tables and it is known that is something that can be done and even to be able to change entire games it would only be a matter of time until someone (not me haha) or some group figured out a way to manipulate the information on a players card somehow so that it screws up the players club database to the point that it has the opposite effect and it pays out much greater

    look at it like this when I did tech support in the way back for an internet provider (@Home) and their email servers were total and complete crap and would lock up and lose emails and on and on.....I had a rude ass "lady" from New Jersey (women from there seemed especially abrasive) yelling at me to give her her emails and why were we holding her emails and who was reading her emails and her emails were private and blah blah

    @Home had 4 million+ subscribers at the time......the emails were on a server (or multiple servers) somewhere a thousand miles from where I was (not sitting under my desk where I could hit it with a hammer like most assumed) and the only way I had access to those emails was if I got her password from her.......and if you think about the amount of time and effort and MONEY it would take to hire enough people to sit around and read the daily emails of 4 million + people to try and find some bit of useful information I suppose you could make a stock trade on or bribe someone with it is laughable that any company would or could attempt to actually have PEOPLE sit there and read through all of that crap.....and what I really wanted to ask her is why anyone on earth would give a damn about her dumbass emails because she was clearly an idiot

    it is just like the NSA spying on all of us now.....it is not PEOPLE doing it it is computers looking through words and patterns of words ect and trying to find patterns (not that it makes it legal or right) and the point is it is the same with a players club database......there is not some guy in a dark room somewhere getting poked with a robotic finger or having a bell or whistle go off when some "player" sticks their high roller card in the machine.......it would have to be a database and an algorithm that decides when to a player that has met particular parameters has inserted a card and then how to act on the parameters of that players play.....and once you hand that off to a computer to decide you are opening yourself up to having the exact opposite of what you desired happen when someone finds a way to game the information flowing in or out....when you let computers make decisions based on information the more information that flows and the more decision making the computer has the more you expose yourself to issues because a computer can't "think" at all that "hey this is not how it should go or hey this is the opposite of what I am suppose to do" or "hey I am being scammed"......a computer just takes in information and processes it and that is that it does not care about or understand the results

    and it is very inexpensive and easy to buy a machine that can program a credit or debit card or a players card.......much easier than it would be to hack up the inside of an older style slot machine to somehow look like it has a ROM/PROM chip when it really has an EPROM and the ability to program that EPROM remotely

    and yes a good programmer could program software to change a slot machine and try and deal with the security threat of other people programming a players card to try and take advantage of some flaw in that databaes or pay table algorithm, but then you will get someone with a way to insert something into a players card slot and totally hack into the database entirely and change complete software programs

    the more information you allow to flow back and forth of various types and the more you allow things to be manipulated based on that information flow the amount you open yourself up to issues increases probably exponentially

    if you play older games that play one game per machine and are just hooked up to a card reader/datalogger that sends bits of data back to a database it would be near impossible to be exposed to this issue ever IF it was an issue and even with true server based games where it is known by all that things can be changed remotely including pay table and even the entire game I would find it hard to imagine a casino would go this route and if they are doing so we will all find out probably sooner than later when it comes out that someone found a way to program players cards (extremely easy to do) to manipulate data in a way that manipulated the algorithm to change pay tables for the positive for a player or even more so they just hacked the entire database and changed the algorithm to just pay and pay on that machine in small increments that won't catch attention when you take a TITO to get your cash....8-10 people cashing in $1500 to $2000 TITOs every day day in and day out will add up fast and someone will find a way if there is a way
     
  9. egelston2

    egelston2 Low-Roller

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    If Trig truly believes that this is going on, Trig should do a FOIA request or try to find the notice and comments from the regs he keeps citing. This will provide insight into the intent of the regs. Plus, because these casinos are run by corporate 500 companies and are so risk adverse, they would request a legal opinion from the NGC or the AG's office.
     
  10. 44inarow

    44inarow VIP Whale

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    It would still be public information. Sure, sometimes legal papers are filed under seal, but to get an order like that takes time, no plaintiffs' lawyer with a brain would file an initial complaint like this under seal, and there's no way a complaint that was filed would have managed to fly under the radar and stay off the internet on an issue like this. Similarly, a judge wouldn't just "[see] the documents that allows it to happen", there would have to be motion practice and briefs with citations to legal authorities, followed by a written opinion. Outside of the national security context, litigation just doesn't happen behind closed doors to this extent.

    I'm not your lawyer and this isn't legal advice, etc.
     
  11. nostresshere

    nostresshere Mr. Anti Debit Card

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    Totally disagree with this. The card would need to be slick enough to continually write and read data, erasing to make more room, etc.

    But, back to reality. I use multiple cards. Under the above theory, those that get lost also take points with them. Of, if I do not use on card for hours, my points would then JUMP when I finally put it in.

    Nope - that message is just MGM's terrible back office systems working hard to find your data.
     
  12. lmondun

    lmondun Low-Roller

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    Good point about lost cards. There must be a mechanism to log and exchange play info even when the player card system is "offline," as I have seen it work properly in such instances. But you are probably correct that it isn't on the card itself. Maybe there is some type of basic storage system within each machine to account for those situations.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2
     
  13. shifter

    shifter Degenerate Gambler

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    every slot machine has always been connected to the network to grab PC info and post play to the PC system. there's a big difference between that and server based slots where the entire game can change from the server.
     
  14. tacallian

    tacallian Low-Roller

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    The way to think of it is the difference between Bluray and Netflix. Bluray, you put the disc in the machine and it plays the movie. As long as the disc is there, that's the movie you watch. With Netflix, the movie is streamed, not stored locally. So the cabinet is little more than a screen and buttons.

    Part of my issue with the logic of this thread is the math of it. I've suspected that casinos most likely alter payback percentages on at least a monthly and possible weekly basis. It will be a tweak or two, relatively minor. Given the number of people playing, this can alter their earnings for the period of time and they have plenty of opportunities to do it "by the book".

    The idea that they would single out an individual based on their play history to alter, just doesn't mesh with statistics. There are very few if any slot players who can claim statistical relevance with regard to slot machine payouts. So the alteration of payback percentages on an individual basis will have no predictable outcome. Now the slot manager that altered a machine so the jackpot was impossible (it was an article a while back), that makes sense despite being horridly illegal. This means that for the system to result in a reasonable return, it would need to be constantly altering paybacks across the entire players club network, which decreases the liklihood of any of it being kept a secret significantly.
     
  15. kel3420

    kel3420 VIP Whale

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    I loved reading about this. Thanks to everyone for the discussion!

    The first time I went to Vegas, I was convinced that there was a switch somewhere in the back room they were able to toggle on and off to make the machines hit more on weekends. I didn't understand the correlation between the number of guests playing on weekends compared to weekdays, lol. Oh the innocence.

    In regards to the thread of this post, in my head I know the legalities and improbability of the card reader issue, but when I am actually playing, that logic falls away and I would then agree with the OP. It's happened to me more times than not.
     
  16. Kickin

    Kickin Flea

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    I'm the same way. While I'm playing VP I'm always convinced the machine is just fucking with me. Same when I play tables a lot of times.

    In reality I know its not singling me out. But I think that type of thinking combined with some misinterpretation of the regulatory text (and potentially being technologically possible) is what's convinced trig that this is happening. But he still hasn't come forward with the evidence he claims supports it.
     
  17. trig

    trig Low-Roller

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    I will - no worries.

    Once it is brought to light, will you play differently? I will for sure and I won't be using my card in a few weeks. (accept for the 6k in freeplay on it)
     
  18. Kickin

    Kickin Flea

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    Play differently? If its actually true why would you play at all??
     
  19. Ronoh

    Ronoh Tourist

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    And I guarantee whatever "proof" you eventually (if ever) offer up will be shot down for being less than factual :evillaugh
     
  20. Corinne

    Corinne Low-Roller

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    Any chance of this within the next few weeks before my next trip?

    Maybe someone in the US could phone The Gaming Commission and ask if there is anything, anywhere, within the rulings that allow this to happen. Surely they would know and if there is maybe some ambiguous paragraph that a lawyer could argue would allow a casino to change things depending who was playing.

    I rang them a couple of years ago and asked whether it was possible the payback could be changed after putting a card in or changing the denomination or indeed could there be fewer bonuses on higher denominations. Absolutely not I was told, it was totally illegal and did I want to make a complaint about anywhere. No, I was just intrigued as it seemed to happen constantly. The guy was very friendly and helpful and quite happy to chat about it all. He also said the penalties were high for not adhering to the strict guidelines and told me of a casino where a Royal Flush was impossible on their video poker machines. The owners had been jailed.
     
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