Help me be a more degenerate gambler

Splitting 8s

...I forgot to mention splitting 8s and shoe-games where surrender is available.

Most basic strategy cards will tell you to always split 8s.
I don't always.

Certainly, with a dealer 2 through 8, I will always split them.

Against a dealer 9,10 or Ace? Well, if I'm playing a shoe game, I'll surrender the hand. If I'm playing 2-deck, I will typically just hit the 16.

But that's me. The math says to go ahead and split them everytime.

 

I believe the "theory" (and math percentages) of always splitting 8's ... is that 16 is such a bad starting hand, that two hands, each starting with an 8 gives you a better chance to win at least ONE of those hands, and break even for that bad starting hand.

 

For a newbie, I suggest just sticking to the basic strategy. Once you're more advanced, there are lots of hands like this where you can do what you want and you'll know that there's just not a lot of mathematical difference.

Like 16 vs a dealer 10 if you can't surrender. The book says hit. But the reality is that the difference between hitting and standing at a $10 table is such a small number that it doesn't matter one way or the other. The difference in expected value for the two outcomes is .0006, which won't have an effect on your bankroll even if you play for 50 years.

 

I agree with Mike. Especially given the OP's comments about being intimidated by strategy, I would keep things as simple as possible to start.

Even something like hitting 12 against a 2 or 3 can throw someone off at the start.

Way easier to start off with "always" rules, and then slowly learn and work in the exceptions.

 

I am that soldier.................


BJ is an easy game to get used to - get yourself on to one of the online games by googling BJ trainer game.

The $5 tables is where you will learn your trade & then maybe you can graduate up the ranks.

You're well on your way to increased levels of Degeneratism (surely not a word but I like it):Þ

 

Not splitting is VERY expensive in one of the situations you describe. For a 2-deck H17 game:

88vA stand: -0.58690 hit: -0.53132 split: -0.49386
88vT stand: -0.52957 hit: -0.52618 split: -0.46344
88v9 stand: -0.53014 hit: -0.49837 split: -0.39387

It's an error in all three situations and very bad against a 9. Only in a 6-deck H17 game and against the Ace is it right to surrender.

 

Let's take a closer look at that...
The advantage to splitting versus hitting is
.03746 for dealer Ace
.06274 for dealer Ten
.1045 for dealer Nine

In terms of identical money at risk per situation, splitting would always be the correct move.
But we know that it is not identical.
While it is true that I would have fewer lost hands if splitting, I wonder if the actual dollars lost isn't higher when splitting versus just hitting the 16.

Let's examine just one of these to see if that holds.
1000 hands of 8-8 versus a dealer 10.
Using those percentages, if I hit the 16 every time, I will lose 520 units and win 480 units. Net loss of 40 units.
If I split the two 8s every time, I will lose 463 times x 2 (926 units) and win (or push) 537 times... if we apply the win/loss percentages (54 vs. 46) to the wins versus push, we have 289 wins for +538 units and 248 pushes for zero units.
So would it be correct that the total units won if splitting would be 538 and total losses would be 926 units? Or is that win percentage already factoring in pushes?
If it is assuming that a non-loss is a win, then hitting the 16 against the dealer ten would be far better.

In any event, part of the problem is with splitting against a high-probability dealer win - risking twice your bet against a dealer up-card that 42% of the time will result in 19 or better (5/12), and 4% of the time will result in 18. Add in the other hands of 19 or better resulting from 2 hits for the dealer, and that probably adds a percent or two for the dealer... so, let's say it's 44% of the time that dealer will have 19 or better with a ten showing.

So - let's say 44% of the time the dealer ends up with 19 or better, beating both of your split hands (including the occassional bust on 1 of the 2).
So - let's say you win one and lose one 27% of the time.
You push with both hands 4% of the time.
You lose both of them 44% of the time.
You win both of them 25% of the time.
Pushes are meaningless, but your wins are 25x2 units (50) and your losses are 44x2 units (-88). Net loss would be 38 units...

So - yeah I guess splitting costing a loss of 38 units is slightly better than just hitting for a loss of 40 units. In any event, I stand corrected.

Guess I might start splitting 8s every now & then against the 9 or 10 when playing 2-deck.

 

@topcard, those expected values (and all split/double expected values on most odds sites) show the difference in your total expectation as part of the original bet.

In other words, they have already taken into account that you put more money at risk, and they still favor the split.

But I am still struck by the irony of this argument breaking out in a thread about a guy wanting to try other games but being worried about how complicated they are. And here we are arguing a situation he might see once every few hours.

 

Nevyn... I didn't think it was an argument... Wade was just showing where my not-splitting 8s against a dealer 9+ was incorrect.

My comment on the splitting of 8s came as a 'PS'-post to what I consider to be a very simple basic-strategy card that a new player could use.
(I had left out that particular hand - hence, the 'PS').

As I posted earlier, most basic strategy cards contain a significant number of hand combinations that virtually everybody already knows... like hitting to hard 17+ when the dealer is showing 7+... or standing on 12+ when the dealer is showing 3 through 6.

I think customizing one's own card to cover the hand-combinations that are more difficult to remember (like A-7) would be a far-more useful tool for the new player than the standard basic-strategy card.

I suppose the most basic of all "basic strategies" would be to play as though every dealer hole card and required 'dealer-hit' is/will be a ten...unless/until you have/reach hard 17+; Double any two-card 11 and always split As & 8s.

But then one would miss out on an awful lot of other doubles and splits.
~shrug~
I guess I just don't think he'd find a useful basic strategy card all that complicated.

 

Understood. I was just pointing out that that sort of detailed discussion about the way to play a specific hand is no way to sell a game to an intimidated person looking to start out.

As for basic strategy cards, I think for those of us who play (and this includes any game), we take for granted a lot of what we have already learned along the way. For someone will little to no introduction to blackjack, delving straight into basic strategy is more involved than you might think.

This is someone who still has to get used to basic concepts. What a split/double is. What insurance is, what surrender is. How to tip a dealer. Other simple procedural things like how to call for a hit or stand in a way the eye in the sky can see so the dealer can take the instruction.

Asking someone to learn all those basics, while also memorizing a card (or constantly referring to it) of how to play each situation isn't that realistic.

So I think the "assume a 10" style stuff is a very good starting point, followed by the advice that they can ask their dealer what the book play is if they are unsure how to handle something.

If they enjoy the game they can always learn more basic strategy as they go.

 

I'm with both of you (how's that for decisiveness?)

I think for the basic play -- the mechanics, and the 'easy' hands you can rely on your dealer for help. So you don't have to spend as much time learning that. Not all dealers know the entire basic strategy, but they all know you don't hit 14 against a dealer 6.

So having a guide for only the harder hands (soft hands, potential split hands) where a dealer is very likely to give you poor advice makes some sense. Hell, I was practicing the other night and made a mistake with A6 vs. a dealer 4.

But if you're going to carry a card, the basic strategy cards are already out there for purchase or download, and it's never bad to have all the information there for reference.

 

Playing at non-peak hours - Great idea to avoid the hardcore players, and to be able to find cheaper tables!

Thanks for the extra basic strategy simplified to just a few key points. Obviously not perfect strategy, but easy to memorize. I agree that I'll need a printed copy, but the simpler strategies detailed above are easier to wrap my brain around.

The MAIN rule for Pai Gow poker is easy to comprehend, and in some practice sessions online, I did seem to burn through money a little slower. But in the end, I still got creamed. That one might be out for the next trip, with focus on practicing BJ, maybe LIR, and other forms of VP. Still open to suggestions on VP.

I also found it funny that the really detailed discussion of a few specific scenarios broke out in the middle of my "keep it simple" thread, but hey, this is where the topic came up

 

breakeven... sorry about getting into all of that detail on splitting 8s.
Wade was correct - just split them every time.

I still think BJ is the way to go for every player - newbie or experienced. With even the most basic of 'basic strategies', you can realize a house edge of less than 1%. You will not find any game with a lower house advantage.
(although some here might make the argument for full-pay VP, played with perfect basic strategy).

Way back in the day, there used to be a computer program called "Dr. Blackjack".
If I recall correctly, it allowed you to set the number of decks, whether or not you can double-after-split, dealer hit or stand on soft-17 and surrender/no-surrender.
That program may not be around anymore, but I'm certain there's other free ones out there that are similar.
I would suggest finding one - then, play with 2-decks, H17, no DAS, no surrender. That will duplicate most of the 2-deck games in downtown Vegas.

If you're more of a strip player, then set it for 6 or 8 decks, H17, DAS & surrender allowed.

Keep in mind that with a "pitch game" (dealt out of the dealer's hand), you physically hold your cards - you lightly scratch the table with your cards for a hit & tuck them under your bet when you're standing. Use only one hand to hold and/or tuck your cards. If you bust, (or get blackjack) toss your held cards face-up onto the table. If doubling down or splitting, you simply toss both of cards onto the table face up & slide out an extra, matching bet next to your original bet. You no longer touch your cards when this happens, using hand signals for splits, as you do with all hands when playing a shoe game.

In the "shoe game", you never touch your cards. Tap or scratch the table for a hit & wave your hand over your cards for standing.

In any game, never touch your original bet chips once the first card is dealt to anyone.

 

Craps is where it's at!

I used to just play BJ, but since I learned Craps a few trips ago, it's pretty much all I play. It looks complicated, but it's really not. Here is all you need to know.

On the come-out roll, play the pass line:

2, 3, 12 - You lose
7, 11 - You win
Anything else (4,5,6,8,9,10) establishes the "point"

Now you just need the roller to roll the "point" before a 7 comes up.

That's it.

If you want to play the safest bet, once the point is established, you can put $6 each on 6 and 8 and every time those numbers come up before 7 or the "point" is rolled, you win $7. Ignore everything else on the table.

 

You can have the BJ card out at tables right? If so, maybe just sitting at the last spot on the table. Then you have enough time to consult your card while the other people are hitting/standing so you don't hold things up.

I'm a terrible blackjack player. But would like to get better at it. I just find I have no long term interest in computer simulators. I'll play for a half hour and then get bored and move on. Not conducive to learning the game.

 

Most places I have been have no problem if you have a card out - they have the advantage anyway and know that most people will still not play perfectly (doubling when you need to) to whittle the edge down even further.

 

If you are new, I would recommend not sitting in the last seat at blackjack.

 

You can have a card with you and consult it during a hand. I believe many properties don't like you to leave it sitting on the table.

 

I'd sit at the next-to-last seat. There are many irrational blackjack players that will give you crap if you're sitting at 3rd base (the last hand) and you don't play their hand according to basic strategy. It's total BS, (as it's impossible to know if taking one too many or one too few cards will hurt or help the dealer's hand) but this myth is quite common.

So, yes, play as close to the end, but not at the end. That will give you more time to think. I think you'll find that in a very short time you'll be playing 90% or more of your hands correctly without having to refer to the card. It's mostly the soft double-downs (things with Aces), that are hard to remember exactly right.

There is underlying logic to most all the basic strategy plays. Mostly you play differently based on whether the dealer has a weak card (2-6) or a strong card (7-T,A). If he's weak, you don't risk busting your hand and will split most things. If he's strong, you won't split and you have to keep hitting to make a hand (17 or better) even at the risk of busting. You still get to double-down on 11 (all the time) and double-down on 10 (if the dealer has a card lower than 10). (5+5 is always 10, not two 5s). Double-down on 9 when he's weak.

There are some exceptions to the above around the edges: hit 12 vs. 2 or 3, don't double-down on 9 vs. 2, don't split 4s except against 5 or 6, include splitting 9s against 8 or 9, always split Aces and 8s.

The above isn't 100% comprehensive, but gives you the vast majority of the plays and some of the rationale behind it all. Most dealers will give you a funny face or a comment if you're about to do something really lame.

 

The game that offers the best odds for you is Baccarat. You dont need to know the rules, just bet either banker or player. Its almost a 50/50 proposition.