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Slots Going to do a High Limit group slot pull in Nov. Need advice..

Discussion in 'Slots' started by Gino, Jun 25, 2017.

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  1. Gino

    Gino "The King of Inappropriate."

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    Another thread gave me this idea. Never done anything like this, nor have I ever traveled to LV with a large group like I'll be with in November.

    I've decided we'll do a group slot pull in the HL room at the Bellagio. There is 8 of us at 400 a piece. I need your advice on a few things.

    1) I'll be putting my MLife card, or my wifes in the machine, as we're organizing, and planning all of the trip, and a few of the party will be staying in our suite.. Yay or nay?

    2) I figure we each hit the max bet button each spin. Or should we have a dedicated spinner?

    3) In case we do hit big - happens all the time - should I have them do the deduction right there, and deduct accordingly from each players winnings out of the handpay? Will the casino issue 8 separate W2G's? Or is the card in the machine the fall guy for the dreaded IRS theft?

    4) Please give me any other advice on this. One of the few things in Vegas I've never attempted.

    Thanks
     
  2. nostresshere

    nostresshere Mr. Anti Debit Card

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    I have seen some folks just let one person deal with the tax side. Pick a number 20-25%. Have it deducted right up front if that makes it easier. Of course, if that person than has matching losses, they do not pay any taxes. And if they are not impacted otherwise, then great. Some people are even if they have matching losses.

    With $3,000 to play, there is a fair chance you might get at least one W2g. Depends on denomination you are playing. The higher the denom, the more chance of a W2. BUT - no matter if you play $5 or $500 machine... your chances of winning are the same. Just a small win on a $500 machine can take you over $1,200 in a hurry.
     
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  3. Gino

    Gino "The King of Inappropriate."

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    Figured we hit a 25 or 50 dollar machine and go from there.
     
  4. tycoon

    tycoon Tourist

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    1.) Sure, this really doesn't matter. If your friends don't care, do it.
    2.) If you trust your friends completely, it doesn't matter who hits it. Technically it could get confusing on who is the legal owner of the winnings because the person who hit the button could argue differently on what you all agreed to. And recent precedent showed that whoever hit the button, gets the money.
    3.) I have never heard of a casino splitting winnings in a W-2 from a single hit. Then again I have never played as a group before. But to me it doesn't seem like something a casino would do.
    4.) Just pray to the gaming gods that you get lucky.
     
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  5. DaiLun

    DaiLun R.C., L.C., and A.A.N.G.

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    IMHO:

    1) if it's your card in the machine, you would assume the tax liability.
    2)Everyone should be in agreement that this is a group activity, and all winnings are shared (to avoid the Florida incident)
    3)The casino will only declare one "winner" on a bet, hence rule #1
     
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  6. Patman

    Patman VIP Whale

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    As stated above by DaiLun.
    A couple thoughts.
    1. There may be some federal tax differences depending on who claims the income. Also may be worthwhile to split up the income yourself (but there are additional forms that you would need to file - this is not done by the casino)
    2. Do you all live in the same state? If not you might want to give some consideration for state tax issues.

    Both of those are beyond the scope of what I would expect anyone in here would be willing to answer (even if they could). Also, probably only worth it if the win was large enough.
     
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  7. Gino

    Gino "The King of Inappropriate."

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    Thanks everyone. As usual I knew I'd find a bunch of food for thought and great answers..Fuckin' love this place!!!:headbang:
     
  8. Royal Flusher

    Royal Flusher Savvy Gambler

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    Should probably agree and decide up front what your cash out and quit conditions are. e.g. what size a win does it take to quit? If you play for an hour and are even, do you quit? (You would have a shitload of points for that. :) )

    Do you go until broke or until you hit $xx ?

    If you do hit $xx, do you do one more spin, and keep going as long as each spin is a win or tie ?
     
  9. notfromconcentrate

    notfromconcentrate Connoisseur of dive casinos and obnoxious outfits

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    Possibly silly question... but would having a Canadian/foreigner in the group make a difference? I realize the withholding is applied regardless, but since such a person would get the withholding returned to them (eventually), would this pose an advantage to a group pull, so that the win is in their name, and therefore the net win for the group is greater?
     
  10. Patman

    Patman VIP Whale

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    Best would be say someone from UK. They don't tax gambling winnings and their tax treaty with US means there is no withholding.
     
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  11. nostresshere

    nostresshere Mr. Anti Debit Card

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    Winner, winner. Chicken dinner!

    That is the way to do it.
     
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  12. Grant1982

    Grant1982 High-Roller

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    It's not going to matter who's card is in the machine, when it comes time to write off losses this is done simply by deducting a loss, if you are audited you may need to supply a PLAYER made gambling log, the IRS couldn't care less about casino logs. As long as the gambling log is done correctly, it should not be an issue writing off losses.
     
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  13. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    Tax considerations (and this is generic rather than aimed specifically at OP's situation):

    The first thing to do is to determine the most tax-advantaged player in the group, see further below. I'll refer to this person as TA. Casinos could issue a W2g with multiple players on it, but they refuse to do it.

    As far as I know, there are no laws that state who the winner of a jackpot is, it's at the casino's discretion to decide and pay the winner. The casino does not want to be in the business of assisting tax dodging, at the same time, do they look at the video on every handpay? I doubt it. I would say that unless the amount is huge, they will be willing to accept the winner to be the person sitting in the seat when the attendant gets there and that player's card was in the machine when the jackpot was hit.

    The foolproof way of insuring this is to have the TA's card in the machine for all spins and also have them sit in the chair and do all spins. Obviously that's no fun. The second best method is to just have their card in the machine for all spins and then they slip into the seat if a jackpot is hit. I don't have any first hand experience with this having happened, but I have read info by someone who has a lot of experience with group pulls that they were told by a casino staff member that this is the way to do it.

    If you use the organizer's card because [whatever], and that person is not the most tax-advantaged player in the group, you are kinda ripping off the other players. You are going to get extra TCs and extra ECs and PointPlay and it will boost your coin in for your next round of offers, but all of that is potentially dwarfed by tax savings if you hit a handpay. (In OP's case, this can be considered as fair compensation for the effort and having people staying in his room, etc., but the tax implications should still be considered).

    Say you have a $2,000 pool with 10 players. You probably will generate $10,000 coin in at most during the pull, and that's being generous. That's 33,000 TCs which sounds tempting. It's $67 combined in Express Comps and PointPlay. If you hit a $1,600 handpay and have to have 25% withheld, then $400 gets withheld. That's $40 less per person, including yourself. You come out $27 ahead, everybody else is $40 behind.

    For individual players (ie. everybody uses their own card), the difference is even more significant. If each player's buy in is $200 and they do $1,000 coin in, that's 3,300 TCs, $6.66 in combined ECs and PointPlay, vs $40 lost to withholding on a $1,600 handpay.

    Order of preference:
    • The unicorn: someone who lives in a no-tax country AND has no withholding requirement. These aren't automatically the same - the person has to have a US tax ID (ITIN) number in order to avoid the withholding. If they don't have an ITIN, the casino will withhold 30%. Technically, the casino could obtain an expedited ITIN from the IRS for this player if a handpay is hit, but just like with the multiple player W2g, they won't do it.
      • This is why it really does you no good if a player is from a tax-exempt country but is not exempt from withholding. He can get the withholding refunded later, but so what? You hit a $10,000 jackpot and $3,000 gets withheld. Everybody in the pool gets $700 instead of $1,000. And then the TA gets a $3,000 refund next year. So the only solution there is either he pulls 3 grand out of his pocket on the spot to make the pool whole, or he sends out 9 checks for $300 USD when he gets the refund. Neither of which is gonna happen.
    • Someone who is willing to take the W2g because they can offset it with losses. Doing a pull late in the year is an advantage here, because everyone should have a pretty good handle on how much in losses they have to work with for the year. If this person is smart, they will figure out how much loss they can use, offer to take the W2g, but say that [some %] has to be taken off the top for amounts over $[whatever]. Example, a player is currently sitting on a $10,000 net loss for the year and is in the 25% marginal tax bracket. They say, "I'll take the W2g, but we have to take 25% from the excess over $10,000 for taxes. So you hit a $12,000 handpay, $500 comes off the top and the TA pockets it. You split the remaining $11,500 10 ways.
      • If multiple people are willing to take the W2g based on offsetting it with losses, but they all have to set a cap on the offset amount, go in order of the highest cap, then secondarily for the lowest withholding %
    • Everybody just uses their own card and if a handpay is hit, they just make their own declaration at that time whether they need to have anything withheld by the casino or taken off the top and pocketed. Disadvantage - they can rip off the group by having an inappropriately high % withheld.
    It seems to go against the fun aspect to think about this in a lot of detail. But if you hit a decent sized handpay, you'll wish you had.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
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  14. Gino

    Gino "The King of Inappropriate."

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    Yeah, Flush this is one thing my wife and I did take into consideration, however, this will be decided amongst all the players the day of.
     
  15. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    I can do a fake log in 10 minutes. I can't fake a W/L from the casino.
     
  16. Grant1982

    Grant1982 High-Roller

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    And yet the IRS still does not care about the casinos W/L log.
     
  17. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    I think you'll find this will pretty much take care of itself, especially with a small group.

    If you had a huge group, you might want to limit the number of spins so that each player only does coin-in equal to their buy in.

    But, even though $400 is a good sized buy in, if you are doing spins at $20 or $25 per pull, you are operating at a high risk of ruin factor. Most of the players will bust out and it won't take that long.

    On a large sub-W2g hit, most players will instinctively either be willing to bail if they've doubled their buy in, or up the per spin amount at that point. And if they're not, the rest of the players usually won't be shy about giving advice.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
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  18. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    I just don't believe that. They have the authority to ask you for more, doesn't mean they will, it doesn't mean a personal log is the truth or that a casino W/L is no good.

    So what if you have your own log? Maybe you forgot the $10,000,000 you won on tables. When it comes to machine play, the casino didn't forget anything.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
  19. nostresshere

    nostresshere Mr. Anti Debit Card

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    IRS rules and IRS reality are not always the same thing. Not worth the time to argue that.

    As to card in or who pushing the button. I have had maybe 50 handpays - maybe closer to 100. I hand the slot attendant my players card and ID when they arrive. Many times I had actually been using my wifes, but no problem at all.
     
  20. Grant1982

    Grant1982 High-Roller

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    The casino absolutely can, and will, make mistakes while counting your wins and losses on a table. You also are not required to play using your card in a machine, where even wins less than $1200 must be logged in order to report. Bottom line is it is on the player to be responsible for his own actions. The IRS may check banks statements (think hotel stays, gas transactions, deposits, withdrawals) in order to verify his gambling log.
     
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