Founder's Card Changes

[DJ Ran]

Changes are finally coming in 2017 to CET Founder's Card Holders. This is according to my host who I spoke to today. Seems a large number of premium players have been voicing their anger to Caesars Entertainment regarding lowly Gold card holders with a mere 1,000 or less TC's being up-graded to Diamond status and receieving the same perks by simply paying out a few hundred dollars for a Founders Card. Premium players are claiming It's totally unfair and a slap in the face that these people receive the same Diamond Lounge Privileges, Diamond Celebration Dinner, Waived Resort Fees and Free monthly show tickets.

The exact words of my host, "I heard it's a now "temporary " deal to be only extended if "new" player plays up to level after 60 days.
Give me a few to explore the new details and shall get back".

Hers an update: I spoke to Host and he told me that yes they are changing the way that it's being run and they have the right to change it at any time it's in the terms and conditions. They said if they do continue it many of the perks will be removed like the hundred dollar dinner and that show tickets that you get each month. They're just gonna let you cut in line and go in diamond lounge -- not sure when it'll happen. But yes only good for 60 days and you have to actually earn it after that time. Earn 15,000 TCs in 60 days or will it be prorated?

 

[stackinchips]

Makes sense. The whole benefit of these tiers is to have the exclusivity, and the perks that come with it. When you dilute that exclusivity, especially when you allow people to gain that level with a few hundred bucks (vs. thousands in losses), it really upsets people. The Diamond Lounges start to fill up which puts a strain on those perks, the lines that are supposed to expedite the check in and other areas start to get longer, etc. Then to top it all off, people finding out that what they were "charged" thousands for, CET was turning around and selling to someone else for a couple hundred bucks. That's just salt in the wound...

Personally I'm actually surprised that they every allowed a full Diamond card for the Founders. It seems like they would have simply given them a Diamond card, allowed them to access the expedited lines, and even the diamond lounges, and MAYBE waive the resort fees. The fact that they get the $100 dinner and tickets always seemed crazy to me. How much is CET getting paid to provide this to the Founders people? I can't believe that it would enough to cover the $100 dinner, resort fees, etc. let alone the "free" perks like the lines...

 

[Nevyn]

Personally I'm actually surprised that they every allowed a full Diamond card for the Founders. It seems like they would have simply given them a Diamond card, allowed them to access the expedited lines, and even the diamond lounges, and MAYBE waive the resort fees. The fact that they get the $100 dinner and tickets always seemed crazy to me. How much is CET getting paid to provide this to the Founders people? I can't believe that it would enough to cover the $100 dinner, resort fees, etc. let alone the "free" perks like the lines...

Well, first of all, the premise of Founders Card was that it was meant to be for entrepreneurs and actual business founders.

It is not that surprising that CET would cut a deal for Diamond status on that basis. They would not necessarily be expecting big participation #'s, and also would have an incentive to acquire those people as gamblers.

The problem is that that Founders Card doesn't really scrutinize its applications, and the CET benefits had enough dollar value that people are signing up just to get the benefits. And when you have that, that's when suddenly the perk abuse gets bigger and more noticeable.

As to what it costs CET, remember that these aren't all hard costs. The comped resort fee requires a stay which may or not not bring in other revenue, and the only hard cost attached to it if the hotel isn't sold out, is the cost to make up/clean the room. Likewise the show tickets are only an opportunity cost if the show would sell out (and those shows are usually not in the CET list). And the $100 dinner is $100 off the retail cost, and the dinner often would either not be the full $100, or often would be a fair bit more, in which case it is simply a discount.

Point being, while I don't think CET expected people getting the card just to abuse the benefits, the amount its truly costing them may not be that high.

 

[stackinchips]

Well, first of all, the premise of Founders Card was that it was meant to be for entrepreneurs and actual business founders.

It is not that surprising that CET would cut a deal for Diamond status on that basis. They would not necessarily be expecting big participation #'s, and also would have an incentive to acquire those people as gamblers.

The problem is that that Founders Card doesn't really scrutinize its applications, and the CET benefits had enough dollar value that people are signing up just to get the benefits. And when you have that, that's when suddenly the perk abuse gets bigger and more noticeable.

As to what it costs CET, remember that these aren't all hard costs. The comped resort fee requires a stay which may or not not bring in other revenue, and the only hard cost attached to it if the hotel isn't sold out, is the cost to make up/clean the room. Likewise the show tickets are only an opportunity cost if the show would sell out (and those shows are usually not in the CET list). And the $100 dinner is $100 off the retail cost, and the dinner often would either not be the full $100, or often would be a fair bit more, in which case it is simply a discount.

Point being, while I don't think CET expected people getting the card just to abuse the benefits, the amount its truly costing them may not be that high.

I had already considered your points, but what you're forgetting is that the Founders Card is only getting $300. Even if you figure the $100 to be worth $50 in hard money, and throw in another nominal amount for the resort fees and DL drinks/food, they still can't be gaining much from this relationship. Founders is likely paying little to nothing for the perks they provide. They're only charging $300 for the card which means they aren't paying much, if anything, to the partners providing the perks. Even discounting all the Diamond perks to a hard costs still doesn't bring it to a financial positive for Caesars most likely...

I do agree though, it's like any other loophole that exists. It gets exploited to the point that they have to radically change the program to get rid of the freeloaders exploiting it. Much like MyVegas at the beginning. A great concept that MGM thought would bring a bunch of people into their casinos for some freebies but they'd drop some more money on slots or other food, or whatever. The reality is that there are too many cheap people who are ONLY there for the free stuff then they're on to the next score and they abuse it and ruin it for everyone else.'

CET's BIG miscalculation which should have been obvious, is that their resort fees are so exorbitant that simply a 5 night trip pretty much completely covers the cost of the card. ($150-180RF + $100 Meal) And then you get all the other perks essentially for free...

 

[Nevyn]

I had already considered your points, but what you're forgetting is that the Founders Card is only getting $300. Even if you figure the $100 to be worth $50 in hard money, and throw in another nominal amount for the resort fees and DL drinks/food, they still can't be gaining much from this relationship. Founders is likely paying little to nothing for the perks they provide. They're only charging $300 for the card which means they aren't paying much, if anything, to the partners providing the perks. Even discounting all the Diamond perks to a hard costs still doesn't bring it to a financial positive for Caesars most likely...

That would depend on the % of founders card members who actually use the CET benefit, and of those, how fully they use them

CET would have expected that to be quite low. With all the sign ups expressly to use this benefit, the numbers get much worse. But I'd still doubt it pushes them below break even.

 

[Onmyown32]

Until it officially changes or gets cancelled I won't worry about it (yeah I like having Access to the diamond lounges)

I imagine if founderscard looses this perk they will lose a lot of card holders this year so negotiations will be crazy so who knows yet what will happen

 

[bobby jones]

I got the FC primarily for Diamond status - it is/was a great deal. Got my money back in one trip. I am not a high roller by any stretch but, CET did make money off my SO and myself this last trip on the floor. If these changes come through, I will not renew and it will simply give me more freedom to move my play around. My SO couid potentially reach diamond on her own play - me , never. Great ride while it lasted for us low rollers. Disappointed but, will not be surprised if there are changes.

 

[Patman]

I had been thinking about this for a while but never did it. The benefit would have been small in my case and not worth the risk of it disappearing. My 2 cents is that CET doesn't get that much from this and it they were convinced by those that run the Founders' Card was that they would be marketing to a group of affluent business people. Instead it was mainly used by regular CET people to get perks from Diamond status without having to earn it who mostly would have gambled and spent the same amount they did without the card.

This is disappointing but not really surprising as most have said. If this is true it's unfortunate for those that just bought for 2 years. But that was the risk and I saw many posts recently asking about whether or not it would continue and it was the same standard answer. No one really knew and it was negotiated annually.

 

[Harry Lyme]

I had already considered your points, but what you're forgetting is that the Founders Card is only getting $300. Even if you figure the $100 to be worth $50 in hard money, and throw in another nominal amount for the resort fees and DL drinks/food, they still can't be gaining much from this relationship. Founders is likely paying little to nothing for the perks they provide. They're only charging $300 for the card which means they aren't paying much, if anything, to the partners providing the perks. Even discounting all the Diamond perks to a hard costs still doesn't bring it to a financial positive for Caesars most likely...

I do agree though, it's like any other loophole that exists. It gets exploited to the point that they have to radically change the program to get rid of the freeloaders exploiting it. Much like MyVegas at the beginning. A great concept that MGM thought would bring a bunch of people into their casinos for some freebies but they'd drop some more money on slots or other food, or whatever. The reality is that there are too many cheap people who are ONLY there for the free stuff then they're on to the next score and they abuse it and ruin it for everyone else.'

CET's BIG miscalculation which should have been obvious, is that their resort fees are so exorbitant that simply a 5 night trip pretty much completely covers the cost of the card. ($150-180RF + $100 Meal) And then you get all the other perks essentially for free...

I see it the other way. As I said elsewhere, the most valuable thing for CET is getting butts in the seats. Offering no resort fees (free money anyway), free parking (easy money, also), some run of the mill show tickets, Diamond lounge access, and a $100 dinner to someone who may not have gone in anyway is a worthwhile gamble. Except for the people who admit they use the card for free food in Vegas, I'm pretty sure the vast majority are spending at least a couple hundred per day, per stay, in non gambling fashion, which is what they're after now.

Besides, who is complaining about too many level'ed up Gold players in the lounges? Plus, I've yet to see a long line for check-in. How is any card holder aware of how someone gained their status, and does anyone really, actually care? The vast majority of players don't even know what a Founderscard is, and never heard of it. They probably also don't care if you DIAD'd it or split it over a few days. I'm the only person I know who is Diamond through my Founderscard. Everyone else has achieved it through good old fashioned grinding.

However, I'm not surprised it may be shifting as it's definitely one of those "too good to be true", "good while it lasts" deals. I've only had it for a few months, but if it ends, it will have cost me one buy-in for the night at a low minimum table. The other perks they offer make up for that, so I'm still glad I got it. And I completely agree with the myVegas thing. Word was that the locals screwed that up, though that doesn't account for such a complete change in rewards. Social Rewards also had a major shift with the free comps. Oh well, all were good while they lasted.

 

[Harry Lyme]

I got the FC primarily for Diamond status - it is/was a great deal. Got my money back in one trip. I am not a high roller by any stretch but, CET did make money off my SO and myself this last trip on the floor. If these changes come through, I will not renew and it will simply give me more freedom to move my play around. My SO couid potentially reach diamond on her own play - me , never. Great ride while it lasted for us low rollers. Disappointed but, will not be surprised if there are changes.

Yeah, this kept my recent play centered at CET. I did visit Borgata over the weekend, but mainly to eat and play slots, no tables (they did recently switch to that 3/4/5 odds). I'm matched to Black Label so if this truly ends, Borgata will get the vast majority of my play in AC for the foreseeable future.

 

[DJ Ran]

Yeah, this kept my recent play centered at CET. I did visit Borgata over the weekend, but mainly to eat and play slots, no tables (they did recently switch to that 3/4/5 odds). I'm matched to Black Label so if this truly ends, Borgata will get the vast majority of my play in AC for the foreseeable future.

It's being said that MGM which now owns Borgata isn't too happy about all the Black label upgrades there either. I'm hearing that will also change sometime this year.

 

[Harry Lyme]

Oh, I can believe that. They were the last guys on the block to offer the match. Golden Nugget did it a while back, but only did actual top tier cards (Titanium, Seven Stars, etc).

In the end, at least for me, my offers were good enough that being Diamond just enhanced the experience, but I don't think I'd ever up my play significantly to get it.

 

[stackinchips]

I see it the other way. As I said elsewhere, the most valuable thing for CET is getting butts in the seats. Offering no resort fees (free money anyway), free parking (easy money, also), some run of the mill show tickets, Diamond lounge access, and a $100 dinner to someone who may not have gone in anyway is a worthwhile gamble. Except for the people who admit they use the card for free food in Vegas, I'm pretty sure the vast majority are spending at least a couple hundred per day, per stay, in non gambling fashion, which is what they're after now.

Besides, who is complaining about too many level'ed up Gold players in the lounges? Plus, I've yet to see a long line for check-in. How is any card holder aware of how someone gained their status, and does anyone really, actually care? The vast majority of players don't even know what a Founderscard is, and never heard of it. They probably also don't care if you DIAD'd it or split it over a few days. I'm the only person I know who is Diamond through my Founderscard. Everyone else has achieved it through good old fashioned grinding.

However, I'm not surprised it may be shifting as it's definitely one of those "too good to be true", "good while it lasts" deals. I've only had it for a few months, but if it ends, it will have cost me one buy-in for the night at a low minimum table. The other perks they offer make up for that, so I'm still glad I got it. And I completely agree with the myVegas thing. Word was that the locals screwed that up, though that doesn't account for such a complete change in rewards. Social Rewards also had a major shift with the free comps. Oh well, all were good while they lasted.

If this were true, they'd offer every gambler in their player database those perks if it were a net positive.

I don't think that legitimate Diamond players are complaining about a SPECIFIC person having a Diamond card through this loophole (like you said, how would you know?), but you can be sure that many of them are aware of the loophole, and with the number of people taking advantage of this certainly has drove up the traffic at Diamond Check In, Diamond Lines, the Lounges, etc. Those DO have a direct impact on people who've earned it legitimately because it makes those perks less valuable. Also judging by the responses in this thread, many of the people that are using this are simply people who were going to stay at CET anyways, and figured out that it was cheaper or the same price to go this route. Now the money that CET would have got anyways just went to Founders instead. What are they really gaining on their end?

 

[miniwhale]

I would have guessed that the Founders Card was hoping to draw people who travel for business to Vegas to stay at CET properties. My husband has stayed there on business because of his Founders Card and has also been able to meet in the Diamond Lounge with a client. His room isn't comped when he travels for business, he spends a decent amount of money on meals with clients. He tends to get upgraded a lot when he is paying top dollar for a room, as opposed to trying to get an upgrade on a comped room when we go. So the person who has a local casino and can go gamble small amounts throughout the year and attain Diamond is necessarily more valuable? They can also visit the Diamond lounge every time they go. How many times would a Founders Card player actually use the lounge? tickets? etc?

 

[Harry Lyme]

If this were true, they'd offer every gambler in their player database those perks if it were a net positive.

I don't think that legitimate Diamond players are complaining about a SPECIFIC person having a Diamond card through this loophole (like you said, how would you know?), but you can be sure that many of them are aware of the loophole, and with the number of people taking advantage of this certainly has drove up the traffic at Diamond Check In, Diamond Lines, the Lounges, etc. Those DO have a direct impact on people who've earned it legitimately because it makes those perks less valuable. Also judging by the responses in this thread, many of the people that are using this are simply people who were going to stay at CET anyways, and figured out that it was cheaper or the same price to go this route. Now the money that CET would have got anyways just went to Founders instead. What are they really gaining on their end?

See below.

I would have guessed that the Founders Card was hoping to draw people who travel for business to Vegas to stay at CET properties. My husband has stayed there on business because of his Founders Card and has also been able to meet in the Diamond Lounge with a client. His room isn't comped when he travels for business, he spends a decent amount of money on meals with clients. He tends to get upgraded a lot when he is paying top dollar for a room, as opposed to trying to get an upgrade on a comped room when we go. So the person who has a local casino and can go gamble small amounts throughout the year and attain Diamond is necessarily more valuable? They can also visit the Diamond lounge every time they go. How many times would a Founders Card player actually use the lounge? tickets? etc?

I hear you, Stackin', but the target for this perk is the non-gambler, all the way around. And when you really look at it, how valuable are those perks? Are they really worth cycling/losing possibly tens of thousands? Unless you visit Vegas or Reno or AC religiously, do the resort fees really make up for the losses? Or one $100 dinner per year? Or Diamond Lounge food? Or any of the other perks? I LOVE the kickbacks, and wouldn't gamble if I didn't get something back, but I've personally lost way more than I would have "saved" had I been Diamond the past few years.

I've personally mixed my time between CET, Borgata, and Valley Forge, with a lot of time going to the latter properties because of how they've rewarded my table play, but becoming Diamond made it make sense to concentrate my play there. Why not? Those savings only went right into their pockets another way, and not into the competition, which is where it worked out for them.

 

[stackinchips]

I get what you guys are saying, but the reality is if what you were saying were true, they wouldn't be talking about completely overhauling the program or scrapping it altogether.

As for business travelers, as Venetian knows well, you don't bother enticing them with discounts or freebies. The majority of them are traveling on their employer's dime so they don't care about room costs, food costs, etc. They don't care if they're charged full freight for a room along with RFs, as to them it's all "free" anyways. Most aren't going to shell out $300 from their own pocket to save their employer on resort fees or food...

 

[EastCoastVegasFan!]

I have to be honest, I am one of the people that bought in for it and take FULL advantage of it. I spoke to my rep at Founders Card, she told me they just submitted the roster to CET for 2017, and doesn't see this going away.

I bought in for two years, got it in July of 2016 and it has already paid for itself as of January 2017.

Free access for me and my friends into the Rio Nighclub in LV
Hit every Diamond Lounge in LV (I do this in AC and Philly Harrah's too)
No resort fees
$100 celebration dinner (getting my year 2 one on Feb 1, 2017)
Free parking
Skip lines
Generally better customer service

Much like Social Rewards, MyVegas, The Southwest Credit Card a few years back where they allowed you to sign up with two cards & no fees for free. I feel no guilt, the casino industry is an evil one, and being a competitive guy, I am going to take advantage of every single edge I can can. I encourage the rest of you to do the same.

 

[Harry Lyme]

True for regular business travelers, but the Founderscard is aimed at entrepreneurs. In any case, they tried it and perhaps, likely, it hasn't worked out in their favor as they'd hoped. I don't think current cardholders should be upset, for one because no one knows any details. Secondly, fine tuning it isn't a bad idea. I'm not opposed to weeding out the folks giving it a bad name. However, there's no point in continuing the partnership if it's a trial situation and you have to earn the 15K, which is obviously Diamond anyway. Just go do DIAD on a mulitiplier day and be happy.

 

[Sprocket]

The only reason I purchased a founders card was for diamond status. Without it I will cancel. I checked the other day and it says that upwards of 10,000 people have signed up for the diamond perk. Just the celebration dinner alone would cost Caesars a million dollars. Oh well, it was nice while it lasted.

 

[bobby jones]

The only reason I purchased a founders card was for diamond status. Without it I will cancel. I checked the other day and it says that upwards of 10,000 people have signed up for the diamond perk. Just the celebration dinner alone would cost Caesars a million dollars. Oh well, it was nice while it lasted.

If that 10,000 figure is correct, I would be curious to know how many diamond members in total there are. I am guessing CET would never release that info. Of those 10,000 how many take advantage? Did we piss off any diamond players directly who "earned" their status? I don't think so. Perhaps some feel the value of their status is diminished. Are they going to cross the street and play mlife properties because of this? I can see that as the only cost to CET. In the end they got me and my SO to spend money at CET that may have been been spent elsewhere. They certainly netted a profit from the transaction. I guess for them, the decision is the potential loss of me (and 9,999 others) vs the potential loss of their pissed off existing earned diamond players.