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Table Games Craps Tables - How many dice rolls per hour?

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by Bryant, Dec 16, 2019.

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  1. Bryant

    Bryant Tourist

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    Hi everyone! I can't seem to find a straight answer to my questions, so hopefully you guys can help me out. Although I am new, I am very well aware of the house edge, true odds, casino odds, buy vs place, etc. I've been running some simulations on different craps strategies using different craps apps. I need some following information to get a full picture of the effectiveness of these strategies.

    1) On average, how many dice rolls are seen in a given hour on a a) almost empty table b) semi-busy table c) fully packed table? Let's assume there are no newbies and all are experienced and knowledgeable of the rules and table layout. I'm not interested in "what's the average number of rolls before you seven-out".

    2) Do I need to ask the pit boss "what is the the maximum payout"? I've read that I can't put a table maximum of $5,000 on a prop bet, because the payout would exceed a certain amount allowed. Is this true?

    3) Do I need to ask the pit boss "what is the maximum table bets per player"? I've read that some tables put a restriction on this too. Even though I put the table maximum of $5000 to place on the "6", I can't place more than $20,000 on the table because that exceeds the maximum total bets allowed per player. Is this true?

    4) I notice that some tables reduce their "minimum bets" to bring in more players. Would this change the table maximum bet too?

    5) What is the typical minimum bet to maximum bet ratio? For instance, what would be the minimum bet at a a $1000 max table?... at a $3000 max table?.... at a $5000 max table?

    6) Can a table reduce the maximum bet allowed whenever they want? For example, I'm at a table for 2 hours and all of a sudden they reduce the maximum bet allowed. Do they need to let you know ahead of time?.... " table maximum will go down to $1000 in 10 minutes or on the next 7-out"?

    So there you have it. Thanks in advance guys!
     
  2. thegov2k2

    thegov2k2 VIP Whale

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    Generally speaking, the vast majority of players aren't in any way concerned with the table maximum. It's the minimum everyone is worried about.

    As far as rolls per hour, that's going to vary from casino to casino, table to table, and hour to hour. It's going to depend mostly on how many bets are being placed and how adept the crew is at keeping track of everything and keeping the dice moving.

    As far as the maximums go, those may be posted at the table. If not, you'll have to ask. These too will vary from casino to casino, and may be different based on the table minimum.

    As far as exceeding a table maximum payout, this (I think) would only apply to bets like the Fire Bet and other carnival-style bets. If there's an established table maximum for placing the 6, for example, they're prepared to pay it off if you win.
     
  3. Bryant

    Bryant Tourist

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    Thanks for the reply. .

    "Generally speaking, the vast majority of players aren't in any way concerned with the table maximum. It's the minimum everyone is worried about."
    - This is precisely why I came her to ask, because I can't find the answers via google search.

    "As far as rolls per hour, that's going to vary from casino to casino, table to table, and hour to hour. It's going to depend mostly on how many bets are being placed and how adept the crew is at keeping track of everything and keeping the dice moving."
    - I am well aware of this, which is why I'm hoping the experienced casino craps players can give me some sort of an idea.... like a range. Maybe something like, "I would typically see 80-100 rolls per hour on an experienced, not so busy table".

    "As far as the maximums go, those may be posted at the table. If not, you'll have to ask. These too will vary from casino to casino, and may be different based on the table minimum."
    - I am well aware of this. Question number 5 shows my inexperience in the craps tables which is why I want an idea. Maybe something like "Expect a $5,000 max table to have a minimum bet of $100 or more." Or maybe one doesn't give you an idea over the other, I don't know.... this is why I'm asking.


    I just need to have an idea of what to expect from the collective minds of you fine experienced craps players.
     
  4. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    For purposes of simulating, I'd use 100 for an almost empty table, 80 for half-full, and 60 for full.

    In reality, for purposes of rating players for comps/theo, the pit may have the option of changing that variable in the system on the fly from time to time, or the casino may just use one flat number regardless of how busy it is.
     
  5. thegov2k2

    thegov2k2 VIP Whale

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    My point was that any information anyone is going to provide here is anecdotal at best. Every casino has different rules and standards that change so frequently, it's hard to provide the answers you're looking for.
     
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  6. BTSyndrome

    BTSyndrome Low-Roller

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    I don't remember which casino I was at but I heard a dealer mention once, they where told, that they should keep pace to have dice thrown every 30 sec on a full table.
    I could see this being doable on a half-full table, but would be difficult on a full table...(granted the experience of the crew would be the deciding factor in all these simulations.)
    The random type and ability of players will most definitely influence this also, so it won't be accurate.
     
  7. HuskerBB

    HuskerBB VIP Whale

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    Blackjack tables will almost always have a sign that shows both the minimum and maximum bets. In that context the maximum does generally adjust somewhat with the minimum. I don't recall seeing posted maximum bets very often at craps tables. But I would guess that it would be at least $5K on a $10 table - so it is an extremely wide range. I think on a craps table if you were approaching the maximum the table manager would let you know what it was. That said, sometimes those maximums get waived. Maximum bets are really to avoid people playing a Martingale betting strategy - or to deal with card counters in blackjack. I was playing blackjack at Orleans once and I think it was a $10 - $2,000 table. One lady playing at the table was routinely betting over $2,000 a hand and no one said anything. If you are flat betting over the table maximum it is likely they are not going to care. That is also why I don't think they generally care about maximums at craps because there is no "card counting" in craps that would trigger people to vary bet amounts - and if you are trying to do the Martingale thing you are not likely to do it at a craps table - at least not with bets spread around the table. If you were only betting the pass/don't pass line - and staring a Martingale progression (doubling your bet with every loss) I am guessing they would pick up on that and tell you want the table max bet is going to be.
     
  8. alexm

    alexm VIP Whale

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    Wizard of Odds seems to indicate 110 rolls per hour in terms of the factor for comp calculation purposes. I would think your actual mileage may vary. Especially if you are putting out some unique (IE table max prop bets)

    While it is the casino's prerogative to adjust their minimum and maximum bets, the following general rules should be followed at most places. if the minimum bet is to change the casino should provide some type of notice (ie in 30 minutes the new minimum will be... or this is the last shooter at x minimum). Also as a general rule posted minimums will typically only increase, especially once a table has players. Yes an empty table may be decreased by pit boss discretion upon request, but sometimes they don't even change the signage.
    It would be advisable to ask the pit boss whether the maximum wager is inclusive of the free odds bets or not.

    The difference being how much you would want to wager on the pass line. (A ma bet of 5k including odds means at 2x odds table you would not want wager more than 1666 on the pass line to be able to wager 3332 as the odds. Most casinos though would allow a 5k pass line wager with 10k in odds. Also they may allow you to exceed table max to accommodate simpler payouts ie 5400 on a placed 6 or 8.

    A maximum payout sign may be posted, but if not you can double check. Generally non-high limit craps table will have a 5k max and that should be the case whether it be a 5 10 or 25. I have seen some 10k and 25K max tables with higher minimums 100 and 500...

    I have never seen a maximum dollars on the table provided no single bet exceeds the maximum bet. meaning you should be able to place table max on all numbers.

    Keep in mind as a don't bettor you can typically risk double the table max to be paid out the table max when you lay odds.

    Some casinos do have different maximums for prop bets. I know fire bets were typically 1-100 at some places as to prevent too much exposure.

    Some casinos may tie min and max together, especially some lower tier places 5 / 500 10 / 1000 etc. But most of the big houses will let you play more. Sometimes way more than posted maximum.
     
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  9. UKFanatic

    UKFanatic The Arbiter of Taste Caviar Kid

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    I can speak a little to the max bet questions. I don't think there is a specific ratio of min to max limits that casinos use. I have seen tables with a $5 min have the same max limit as the table with a $100 min. $5k is the highest table limit I have seen outside of a high limit or otherwise reserved (a few times I have played at 10k tables). As for the casino reducing the max limit while gamblers are playing, I have never seen that happen (and I used to play an unhealthy amount of craps, a few times with some big bettors). But they are allowed to. They can't change the max limit if your bet is already out there, but they theoretically could reduce it following a seven out. Still, there is absolutely no reason why they would do that (since they want you to bet more), so I can't imagine that would happen. Increasing (and occasionally reducing) the table minimum is what you're more likely to see. In those cases, the casino can (but is not required) to grandfather you in at the lesser minimum (sometimes only for a limited number of shooters)
     
  10. DJP

    DJP Low-Roller

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    I would suggest, if you're making and winning 5-figure bets at a $10 minimum table on the floor, the game is likely to slow down, because the pit boss is likely to be consulted to inspect and approve your payouts. You might want to consider finding someplace with a craps table in the high limit area, if you want to keep the game moving fast.
     
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  11. UKFanatic

    UKFanatic The Arbiter of Taste Caviar Kid

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    Other than odds, I'm not sure of any five figure bets you can make at a $5k table (unless you mean cumulative for all bets on the table). In Vegas, there really aren't many non-reserved games in the high limit rooms (I recall playing them at Wynn and MGM Grand). But your point is still well taken. If the OP is making table max wagers, you can probably get a reserved table (on the main floor or, maybe, the high limit; it depends on your play history and front money or CL). Even if the OP doesn't have the play history to get a reserved table, he could easily find an open table (or even an open side) and ask the supervisor to raise the minimum to $500. That will effectively keep at least half the table open for you while you play
     
  12. Bo333

    Bo333 VIP Whale

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    2) Do I need to ask the pit boss "what is the the maximum payout"? I've read that I can't put a table maximum of $5,000 on a prop bet, because the payout would exceed a certain amount allowed. Is this true?
    -- On a 5k table most prop bets try to max out around 15K payout per bet. Hence hard 6/8 max out at a $1500 bet. Aces or midnight max out at $500...etc.
    -- The largest bet on the a 5K table would be a 25K odds bet. At most casinos you can ask for a 10K table (I think they want a min of 500K banked for those.)

    3) Do I need to ask the pit boss "what is the maximum table bets per player"? I've read that some tables put a restriction on this too. Even though I put the table maximum of $5000 to place on the "6", I can't place more than $20,000 on the table because that exceeds the maximum total bets allowed per player. Is this true?
    -- This is not true that I'm aware of. You can could do 27K across, plus a 5K pass, plus max odds. If you really wanted to play for more you could also do 'put' bets and max each number to 10K.

    4) I notice that some tables reduce their "minimum bets" to bring in more players. Would this change the table maximum bet too?
    -- It does not.

    5) What is the typical minimum bet to maximum bet ratio? For instance, what would be the minimum bet at a a $1000 max table?... at a $3000 max table?.... at a $5000 max table?
    -- Most casinos have a max 5k bet (that means max 5k on a place, come, pass, or put bet)...some of the lesser casinos have a 3K max bet.

    6) Can a table reduce the maximum bet allowed whenever they want? For example, I'm at a table for 2 hours and all of a sudden they reduce the maximum bet allowed. Do they need to let you know ahead of time?.... " table maximum will go down to $1000 in 10 minutes or on the next 7-out"?
    -- They generally will not reduce the maximum bet, they can however shutdown the table at their discretion..
     
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  13. UKFanatic

    UKFanatic The Arbiter of Taste Caviar Kid

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    Actually, the largest bet on a Strip 5k table would be 30k (can't say I have ever seen it, though).

    I played at an MGM table with no posted limits in the high limit once. I was by myself and asked if they would let me play with a $500 minimum and they said sure. Later that night, I saw a real big player at the same table betting 7k on the line, so I would not be at all surprised that he had CL at least that size
     
  14. JoeCollege

    JoeCollege Tourist

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    OP, I'm extremely curious as to what kind of strategy requires so much focus on the table maximum. Would you mind sharing some details of what you've discovered so far?
     
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  15. Ty

    Ty ?

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    I see you joined today. Welcome to VMB!
     
  16. UKFanatic

    UKFanatic The Arbiter of Taste Caviar Kid

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    My guess: some sort of negative progression
     
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  17. Calder

    Calder VIP Whale

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    Makes that first roll reeeally exciting.
     
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  18. topcard

    topcard When will Vegas Really Re-Open?

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    I think 1 roll every 30 to 45 seconds is a good rule-of-thumb... and, since the largest single bet I've ever made at a crap table is a $60 six & eight (and - once -, a $90 hard-8 following a $25 winning bet), I can't speak to any of your other questions.
     
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  19. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    Yeah, if you're Martingaling, you may run up against the max.
     
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  20. AyDee

    AyDee is getting too old for this

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    From my recent first experience seeing someone hitting table max last trip,
    Just go for it, or ask, the dealers will tell you when you are over, and also tell you when you are under, and what you can go to,
    If you win for any stretch, prepare for many pit critter eyeballs on you and sweating of any shooter that holds them too long.

    maybe if you share your intended session BR, folks here could tell you where you want to go.
    I don't think Ivey has problems with max limits at Craps.

    If you are running sims and find anything interesting, please share.
    There is an intangible factor when the rubber actually hits the road.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2019
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