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Table Games Craps-Playing Pass AND DP Same Time

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by Here2Learn, Sep 14, 2021.

  1. Stilly

    Stilly Tourist

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    And I know that with this system the player is guaranteed to lose (unless they take odds). So they will still earn comps, just not at high rate like $1000.
     
  2. AyDee

    AyDee is getting too old for this

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    IIRC, I heard of a strategy where you would lay odds on the don't on the 4 & 10
    and maybe take pass odds on inside numbers,
    but yeah, IDK, I'm almost always on team pass/come
    There was a Hawaii craps shooters strategy (youtube) where you take 6&8 and lay a don't on the 4,
    specifically because it was semi hidden/low key if the shooter is on the other side,
    sounds kind of interesting.

    Do whatever floats your boat, but maybe don't expect huge comps from craps?:confused:
     
  3. vegaskid74

    vegaskid74 High-Roller

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    Again, respectfully, this is incorrect. The house edge on a pass line bet is 1.41%. The house edge on a DP bet is 1.36%. They're basically equal. Making both bets simultaneously does nothing to change either one. From an expected loss perspective (or expected gain from the house's perspective), $1,000 bet on one or the other is the same as $500 bet on both. They should be rated and comped the same. I'm not disagreeing with your statement about how the house views and handles these two approaches differently, but mathematically there is no difference. The player that picks a side will experience more variance (bankroll fluctuations), but both will have the same expected loss and should be rated and comped the same.

    Think about it. In an average speed game, a player faces probably 25-30 come out rolls per hour. A player betting $500 on both sides will lose $500 on 1 out of every 36 come out rolls (when a 12 shows), so this player has an expected loss of at least $250 per hour and probably closer to $350-400 per hour. That's worth at least $100 per hour in comps, perhaps more. You'd really only comp him a couple bucks an hour? A more enlightened floor will take that very profitable customer from you in a hurry.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2021
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  4. Mr. Elite

    Mr. Elite Low-Roller

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    As others have said the bets are independent and there are casinos that rate the action for both bets placed on the pass and don't pass at the same time. You have to remember for the player if they bet $500 on the pass and $500 on the don't pass it is not a wash, but rather they did not win $500 for either outcome. As well as when a 12 is rolled on the come out the player loses $500 because a 12 is a tie for the don't pass and a loser for the pass line.

    So the value of this system when I play this is to mitigate risk on the come out roll and be able to decide if I want to add odds to the pass or don't pass based upon the established point.

    Mr. Elite
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2021
  5. zoobrew

    zoobrew VIP Whale

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    Bad post. Got myself confused.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2021
  6. vegaskid74

    vegaskid74 High-Roller

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    Wait, what? I'm giving them $5 in comps per decision, not per roll. Each time the puck is set to "off" that's a new come out roll. If a 7, 11, 2, 3, or 12 is rolled on a come out roll, that's a decision and the next roll is another come out roll. If a player sets a point and then makes the point or sevens out, that's a decision and the next roll is a come out roll. There are probably 25-30 come out rolls per hour in an average speed game. 25-30 times $5 is $125 to $150 in comps per hour on a $350-400 per hour expected loss, so right around 35% in comp value which is pretty standard.
     
  7. Stilly

    Stilly Tourist

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    I don't know how you can think that always having $1000 at risk during the entire roll is the same as risking $500 on the come out roll only. Not only are you never risking $1000 with that system, but you are only ever risking $500. I would love to see how you come up with that math. That "enlightened" floor person can take them. The players that are making these bets are only doing it to gain comps. I'm not the only one that thinks this way. Here is a quote from the Wizard of Odds himself when asked about a player doing $10 do/don't.

    "Show me a player making opposite, or near opposite, bets and I'll show you a player up to something. He is probably trying to take advantage of a promotion or comps. If I ran a casino, I would give credit only for money being risked. One could argue he is risking $10, because a 12 will cause the pass to win and the don't pass to push. However, that will happen 1 in 36 pass line bets only. If I ran a casino, I would give him an average bet of $0."
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2021
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  8. Mr. Elite

    Mr. Elite Low-Roller

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    @Stilly your missing the point that every bet is independent of each other with the house edge built in for every bet. I am not a mathematician so I will not comment on the mathematics behind this. Again for the player if they bet $500 on the pass and $500 on the don't pass it is not a wash, but rather they did not win $500 for either outcome, which means the casino did not pay out $500. As well as when a 12 is rolled on the come out the player loses $500 because a 12 is a tie for the don't pass and a loser for the pass line.

    Ultimately there are casinos that do rate this action including Wynn and Aria, they understand the math and thus they rate accordingly. The player doing this and not having any odds behind either the pass or don't pass could be assumed to be using this as a way to be rated better for comps. However, there are players like myself that want to mitigate risk on the come out as well as have a look at what the point is prior to making the determination as to if they want to back the pass line or don't pass line.

    Mr. Elite
     
  9. vegaskid74

    vegaskid74 High-Roller

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    You're way overthinking (or maybe underthinking?) this. Each bet is independent. If a player makes thirty $500 pass line bets and thirty $500 don't pass bets per hour, that's $30,000 in total action times a house edge of about 1.40% for an expected loss of $420. It doesn't matter that he's making the bets simultaneously. Again, each bet is independent. I'd be willing to comp him about a third of that, so $140. If a player is mostly making $500 place bets, he's probably worth a lot more to the house because he might have 50-100 decisions per hour instead of 25-30 on the pass/DP line, not to mention the higher house edge on the outside numbers.

    This is why craps can be a tough game to rate accurately because there are multiple bets a player might be making with wildly different house edges, decisions per hour, etc.

    All that matters is bet size times house edge times decisions per hour. You're wrong that a player with equal bets on the pass line and don't pass isn't risking anything and therefore isn't deserving of comps. If this still doesn't make sense, there's not a lot more that can be said.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2021
  10. Stilly

    Stilly Tourist

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    I am going to try and see it from where you are coming from. Craps theoretical is calculated as follows; Avg. Bet * House Edge * Avg. Outcomes/hr * Hrs. Played. Now we will never agree that $1000 should be the avg. bet since $500 is the only amount that is ever at risk. That would be the same as giving a consistent $500 blackjack player a $1000 avg. bet. But since $500 is technically at risk I will go ahead and plug in a $500 avg. bet. $500 * 1.40% edge * 30 outcomes * 1 hr. = $210/hr theoretical loss. $210 * 35% = $73.50 worth of comps. The problem with this math is that you can't tell the software; the software that my casino uses anyway; that this player only has 30 outcomes per hour. So if it is programmed to calculate 90 outcomes per hour you are giving the player 3x the amount of comps they are entitled to. You would then have to divide the avg bet by 3 to offset that. $500/3 = $166.67, let's call it $170.

    Again, I am not convinced that this is how this play should be rated, but that is the absolute highest you might have a shot at convincing me to rate play like this without a detailed mathematical proof showing me why I am wrong. An actual mathematician (Wizard of Odds) said that he would give a player doing this with $10 do/don't a $0 avg. bet. Not $20 avg, not $10 avg, but a $0 avg.

    I am going to be at the Cosmo on Monday. I will ask the boxperson or floor how they would rate this play. I personally have 13 years combined as a dealer, floor, and shift manager. I actually tend to rate higher than some people. I won't just start with the players' first bet; some floors do, even at the Wynn or Aria. If a player starts pressing their wins I will average that out with the original bet. If a player is taking care of the dealers I will even include their odds in their average bet, which most places most definitely do not do as there is 0 house edge. All that to say that I am not just some floor that is being stingy with comps. I love giving comps to players that give action. This type of action is just not worthy of a $1000 or even $500 avg. bet.
     
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  11. Mr. Elite

    Mr. Elite Low-Roller

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    @Stilly We can’t change your opinion regarding rating the don’t and pass line bets together, as you are entitled to your option.

    The question that was asked by OP was if there are casinos that will rate the play. The clear answer to this is yes, there are casinos that will rate both pass line and don’t pass line bets. These casinos understand that the house edge is built into each individual bet and thus their house advantage is protected.


    Mr. Elite
     
  12. smerrian

    smerrian View from Bally's

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    And which casinos will rate both bets for the player?
     
    PHX >> LAS
    PHX >> LAS
  13. VegasBJ

    VegasBJ VIP Whale

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    I know the Wynn does
     
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  14. Stilly

    Stilly Tourist

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    I'm not saying there is not a house edge built in. There absolutely is. What I contest is that the average bet is that high. I only give them what they are actually putting at risk.

    You are saying that the average bet should be $1000 even though $1000 is never at risk. If that is your position, then yes, you can never convince me of that. And yes, if there are casinos that are willing to give a $1000 avg bet for risking at most $500, you should absolutely go stroke them for everything you can get. Hell, you might be able to lay odds and get them to add that to your avg. bet.
     
  15. vegaskid74

    vegaskid74 High-Roller

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    Uggggg. At this point I'm convinced you're trolling us. It's not really possible that you're in casino supervision and still have such deep misunderstandings about the basic principles of the games you supervise, is it?

    STOP THINKING ABOUT THE PASS AND DON'T PASS BETS AS A PACKAGE DEAL. THEY'RE SEPARATE, INDIVIDUAL BETS. If a player bets $500 on the don't pass, you would agree that he has $500 at risk against the house edge of 1.36%, right? If a player bets $500 on the pass line, you would agree that he has $500 at risk against the house edge of 1.41%, right? If a player does both at the same time, HE HAS $1,000 AT RISK AGAINST A BLENDED HOUSE EDGE OF 1.3888%, AND HE SHOULD BE RATED AND COMPED ACCORDINGLY.

    If it makes you feel better, think of the player as two separate individuals, one named Ted who is making $500 pass line bets, and the other named Fred who is making $500 don't pass bets. Comp them separately and let them work it out later. :bang:
     
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