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Table Games Craps-Playing Pass AND DP Same Time

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by Here2Learn, Sep 14, 2021 at 8:53 AM.

  1. Here2Learn

    Here2Learn High-Roller

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    This was brought up on another forum and was wondering what your thoughts are on this. If someone usually plays a 5 dollar table with double odds but there are only 15-25 tables around. What happens if you play both the pass and don't pass for 15 each, 1 dollar on the 12. After the point is established just play odds and instead of a come bet, place a number.

    Out of curiosity and cheapness, would this be allowed? I'm assuming the pass and don't pass become a wash and you technically only win or lose on the odds plus whatever you place.
     
  2. vegaskid74

    vegaskid74 High-Roller

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    Sure, it's allowed. But why would you want to? Each bet is an independent thing, so you're just getting extra -EV action.
     
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  3. VegasBJ

    VegasBJ VIP Whale

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    Also, most casinos will not count offsetting bets such as this towards your avg bet #. There are a few that will
     
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  4. vegaskid74

    vegaskid74 High-Roller

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    I'm sure you're right, but if they were smart they would rate all of it. All a player like that is doing is guaranteeing the house a modest win. I'd comp that player all day long. Like I said, each bet is an independent thing. Betting the do and don't simultaneously doesn't magically make the house edge go away on either bet. You're just getting twice as much unprofitable action.
     
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  5. Stilly

    Stilly Tourist

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    I can tell you for certain that play like this and all other hedge bets are only rated at the possible win/loss for your average bet where I work. So in this example, the avg. bet would be $1 (for the 12). Another example would be to travel a $5 Don't Come to an 8, then place the 8 for $6. You can either lose $1 or win $2 so avg. bet is $1.50 probably rounded down to $1.
     
    It's been too long.
  6. Nittany1

    Nittany1 VIP Whale

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    Aria ,and I guess most MGM properties rate both sides.
    I've played next to someone several times betting purple on Pass and DP.
    He was rated as a $1000 player.
    I was more than surprised.
    The dealers don't like it ,the pit boss does not like it but that is how they were told to rate this type of "Doey/Don't " play which is one of the Scoblete systems from years back.
    Losing $500 every 36 rolls on average seems like a grind ..Better ways to earn comps
     
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  7. Stilly

    Stilly Tourist

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    Yeah we definitely would not give him that kind of rating. He would get $500/36 or about $14. Would probably round up to $15 avg bet
     
    It's been too long.
  8. Packer

    Packer VIP Whale

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    At 1000, 500 on each, by the math he stands to lose 1,500+ an hour alone on that bet plus whatever other bets he's making. I say of course give him the full 1000+ rating. Maybe he's waiting for that moment to take advantage of table max odds. Once he gets by that come out roll the don't is in his favor up to 2:1 and can put 6000 in odds at that point. I know someone very very close to me who plays that way and does pretty well actually better than when he would only play the pass line.
     
  9. Patman

    Patman VIP Whale

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    Not disputing what they told you, I'm going to have to check this out the next time I'm there. Doesn't seem to make sense from a casino standpoint. I think I would do this and put $15 - 20 on the12 on each come out roll. I would lose maybe $200-250 in general in an hour (less on a hot table). I would still play the rest of the rolls as normal, either place the inside or across. But I would think the comps from the extra $1000 avg bet would offset my cost. I might just reduce my ATS bet by $15. I couldn't play with this as my only bet. Or play some DC's bets to hedge a cold table.

    Am I missing something in the math?
     
  10. vegaskid74

    vegaskid74 High-Roller

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    I'm not disputing what you guys are saying regarding how different properties choose to rate this type of betting behavior, but I am saying that it's stupid and unfair not to rate all of the money on the table. A pass line bet has a house edge of 1.41%. A don't pass bet has a house edge of 1.36%. They don't magically cancel each other out. If a guy has $500 on both sides, he's basically got $1000 bet at a blended 1.385% house edge. They should rate and comp him on the whole thing.

    This of course is exactly correct. You're guaranteeing the house a profit of $500 on one out of every 36 come-out rolls. The other 35 will be a push. I would love a player like this. He has absolutely no chance of beating me. He's basically just handing me $500 per hour for the privilege of standing at my table. He presents absolutely zero risk to the house. I would comp this guy all day long. It's a stupid way to bet, but rating him at a $15 average bet or whatever is even dumber. His average bet is $1000, and the house is earning vig on all of it.
     
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  11. Nittany1

    Nittany1 VIP Whale

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    I'll be there in 30 days and will ask again.
    Unless something changed , it's $1000.
     
  12. zoobrew

    zoobrew VIP Whale

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    Yes, but if the comp system gives out 1.5% in comps for the action, then the casino is losing money. How detailed is the craps comp system to notice the difference between this style of betting and a more normal style of betting. If they just plug in $1,000 per roll, what house edge is assigned to it? How much in suites, and other forms of comp credits have you given him? So in the end I guess I am saying, how a casino comps systems work could determine how much they rate the above player.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2021 at 3:39 PM
  13. Patman

    Patman VIP Whale

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    I kept waiting for someone to comment, but yeah, they do magically cancel each other out. Other than the come out roll, there is a net zero win/loss no matter what is rolled. You will either win $500 on the pass line bet and lose $500 on the don't, or lose $500 on the pass and win $500 on the don't, or there is no resolution. You won't win or lose anything and the house won't win or lose anything.

    And on the come out roll, you have a 1/36 chance of losing $500 with the other 35/36 potential rolls resulting again in a net zero win/loss.

    It's called a hedge. Only the "Don't Pass Bar 12" makes it so it isn't a perfect hedge.
     
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  14. ravenone

    ravenone Tourist

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    The way around the issue with them not counting all $1000 is to have two people involved so both get $500 per roll rating.
     
    Vegas and Sting!!
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  15. Patman

    Patman VIP Whale

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    You'd still have to get that past the pit boss, unless they actually would rate it anyways. Wouldn't take too much to know what was happening. I have considered this.

    Also probably why you get none or very little credit for bets on bubble craps and roll to win, as it would be easy to hide it there.
     
  16. ravenone

    ravenone Tourist

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    Yup. Would be obvious when its always the same two people with same opposing bets each time. The killer is that 1/36 and variance which would quickly wipe out any comps with the $500 loss each time it happens.
     
    Vegas and Sting!!
  17. VegasBJ

    VegasBJ VIP Whale

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    most guys playing this way also throw like $25 on the 12 on the come out roll to cover their bases that way as well. so, they can lose $25 per new point roll, lol
     
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  18. vegaskid74

    vegaskid74 High-Roller

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    It's very simple. They should rate and comp this just like a $1,000 bet on the Pass or DP. The house is going to make about 1.40% on both $500 bets, so that's an expected win of $14 to the house each time you make these matched Pass/DP bets. The house usually comps 30-40% of theoretical win, so I would comp $5 or so for every $1000 bet this way. Simple.
     
  19. vegaskid74

    vegaskid74 High-Roller

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    Respectfully, this is incorrect. Making two negative expectation bets doesn't magically create a neutral or positive expectation bet. It's 6th grade math.

    The rest of this is correct. You actually spell out the exact mechanism by which the house advantage manifests itself (35/36 come out rolls result in a push, but the 36th (a come out roll of 12) results in a push on the DP but a $500 loss on the pass line. If you divide the $500 loss by the total moneys wagered ($36,000), you get the exact 1.385% blended loss I spoke of. It actually comes out to 1.38888% because the 1.36% house edge on the DP and 1.41% house edge on the pass line are rounded figures.

    Again, this is middle school math. I'm not saying there aren't casino personnel dumb enough to think a player is getting away with something or minimizing the house edge in some mysterious way by playing both sides simultaneously, but the math is the math. If a player has $1000 bet split between the pass and DP, it's the same as having all $1000 on one side or the other. The only difference is that the loss for the player will be guaranteed and steady in the short run instead of just guaranteed in the long run for the player that actually picks a side.

    If I owned a casino I would love a player like this. If these "doey-don't" bets are all they're making, they have no chance of ever being ahead of the game. They can only lose, even in the short run. Now I realize that most players combine this stupid behavior with odds bets or other bets, but it doesn't change the fact that every bet on the craps table is an individual thing. There's no magical way of combining negative expectation bets to create a neutral or positive outcome.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2021 at 5:45 PM
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  20. Stilly

    Stilly Tourist

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    I'm sorry, but $500 Pass and $500 Don't Pass is not the same as $1000 on the Pass or Don't Pass. With $1000 on the Pass or Don't Pass you are risking $1000 on every roll, not just the come out roll. With $500 do/don't you are risking $500 only on the come out. You will only lose that $500 1 out of every 36 come out rolls. After the point is established you are no longer risking any money. You can't win or lose, so there is no house edge on those bets after the point is established. There is no reason that a casino should be calculating comps for you at $1000 if you are only ever risking $500 and you are barely even doing that. The casino would actually come out behind through comps giving that high of an average bet. Like I said, the average bet should be $500 * 1/36 = $13.89, and I'd go ahead and round it up to $15. That's all the action you are giving me and that's all I'm going to give you credit for.
     
    It's been too long.