1. Welcome to VegasMessageBoard
    It appears you are visiting our community as a guest.
    In order to view full-size images, participate in discussions, vote in polls, etc, you will need to Log in or Register.

Table Games Crapless Craps... is this the how craps dies?

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by DoubleUp, Feb 6, 2020.

  1. DoubleUp

    DoubleUp Low-Roller

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2008
    Messages:
    410
    Location:
    Scottsdale
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    7
    I remember reading about this game a long time ago, as it was something that Bob Stupak tried at his infamous "Vegas World" Casino. It was such a bad game that it quietly died. (Edit: Correction, I guess it stuck around at the Stratosphere and is still there)

    Well, as they say, never give a sucker an even break. And as the Casinos learned with 6:5 blackjack, somehow even with all the information available on the internet, there are more suckers than ever! So I guess I should not be surprised to see Crapless craps making a come back. This week the game was going strong at both the Mandalay Bay and at the Luxor. And let me tell you conventioneers were packing into this game at the Luxor!

    In case you are not aware of this game, it is one of those things that seems good at first: You can't lose on the come out roll! Instead of 2,3,12 losing, they become points. But also 11 becomes a point, and if you run the math the giving up the win on the 11 in exchange for a chance of winning on 2,3,12 is a bad bargain. Pass line house edge is a whopping 5.38% ! !

    Have people seen this game at other chains? Is Caesars rolling this thing out?

    I think it will take some time, but I do worry that this abomination is going to do to Craps what 6:5 did to blackjack. So get out there and play the real game while you still can!
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2020
  2. The Rumor

    The Rumor VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2015
    Messages:
    3,829
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    20
    No, because most people hate the game and won't play it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  3. mike honcho

    mike honcho Low-Roller

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2018
    Messages:
    162
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    24
    Had it at harrahs in new orleans this summer.
     
  4. DoubleUp

    DoubleUp Low-Roller

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2008
    Messages:
    410
    Location:
    Scottsdale
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    7
    They should hate it. But I was disappointed to see the damn things crowded.
     
  5. The Rumor

    The Rumor VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2015
    Messages:
    3,829
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    20
    I don't know if the tables are new on the South Strip, but this has existed periodically downtown and on the Strip.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Hogman

    Hogman VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Messages:
    2,108
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    70
    As I have said before, I like crapless craps. It is and has been in Mississippi and Louisiana casinos for many years and is very popular. I admit that if you are a pass/come only bettor, than it is not the game for you. I am mainly a place bettor, and all place bets pay the same as a regular craps table. In Tunica, you can buy all the numbers(2,3,4,5,9,10,11,12) @ $10.
    Also there is no don't pass in crapless.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  7. BYLee291

    BYLee291 Tourist

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2016
    Messages:
    43
    Location:
    New York City
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    21
    There was a table in December at Harrah's Las Vegas outside The Piano Bar. I was there Sunday through Thursday during Rodeo week and it was never open the entire time I was there. Last summer, I asked a dealer to explain the game to me and just the explanation told me it was a bad deal. The table never had more than a few people playing when I walked past it last summer. It's like 6:5 blackjack, if you play at these tables, eventually regular craps will be gone.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2020
    • Agree Agree x 2
  8. FABismonte

    FABismonte Tell my wife I am "about even."

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2009
    Messages:
    1,282
    Location:
    Silicon Valley, CA
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    55
    There is a crapless craps table at Harrahs Tahoe but it opens up only when the other normal craps tables are packed. If I had no choice other than to play crapsless craps, I would just place the six and eight so I would still get the traditional decent odds on those numbers-- while avoiding the line bet. So no biggee to me.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. DoubleUp

    DoubleUp Low-Roller

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2008
    Messages:
    410
    Location:
    Scottsdale
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    7
    .

    Good point (no pun intended !)
     
  10. SH0CK

    SH0CK Stylin' and Profilin' Quasi Tech Admin

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2001
    Messages:
    18,388
    Location:
    Tennessee
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    46
    Last time this got brought up, there weren't a lot of Vegas casinos reported to have it. I don't expect it to spread like wildfire. Craps isn't like BJ where there isn't much effort in understanding the game, so those that play typically understand that crapless isn't the game they want to play.

    There are a few tables out there and some folks may enjoy playing something different (and typically easier to get on a table), but I'm not one of those.
     
  11. Village Idiot

    Village Idiot Low-Roller

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2017
    Messages:
    201
    Location:
    Michigan
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    75
    There are 2 crapless craps tables at Ameristar in East Chicago. One or sometimes both tables are open (especially at night) and both are busy. I remember in my youth, playing that game at The STRAT . Seemed like a good idea at the time. Could have been the alcohol though.
     
  12. mjames1229

    mjames1229 # of visits includes only trips w/ hotel stays

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2011
    Messages:
    2,612
    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    29
    I know the math is there, but I can't get worked up about it.

    Lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of craps players (and even more than that) make hardway bets on each roll, Fire, ATS, Field, buying 4/10, placing the 5/9 etc. EVERY ONE of those bets is 5% or worse. A vast majority of players play craps for the big hit. You can't get the big hit without outlay. Sevenout takes down just about every bet on the table, whether the point is a 6 or a 12. Sevenout rules the table.

    So I am supposed to get all alarmed because my nickel line bet will lose an extra 3% in the very, very long run?

    Is Crapless Craps a game to make the house more money? Sure.
    Is Crapless Craps worse than most slot machines and almost every carnie table game. Nope.
     
    Watching wife bowl Women's Nationals
    Super Bowl / Poker Trip Combo Platter
    • Agree Agree x 4
  13. boxofbirds

    boxofbirds Royal Flushless

    Joined:
    May 23, 2014
    Messages:
    2,139
    Location:
    Seattle
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    22
    Were these packed Crapsless tables at Mandalay Bay and Luxor at a lower limit in relation to the regular tables? Were there more people playing at Crapsless than the regular tables that were open?

    I'm not too worried if it's an alternative in addition to the regular Craps tables, or if it's a way for casinos to offer a $5 table minimum and still make money. Doubt it will ever be as popular or take over like 6:5 blackjack. Plus 6:5 is just a payout difference that not many people can tell the difference between it and a 3:2 table, Crapsless is definitely an identifiably different game.

    As you mentioned it was the conventioners packed into the table at Luxor. Most of the Craps players who come to town wouldn't touch it IMHO.

    When I was at The Strat last trip the ONLY table they had open was Crapless... so I played blackjack!
     
  14. Electroguy563

    Electroguy563 Over-Fried Gambler

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2011
    Messages:
    6,831
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    21
    Where can I get info as to what the payoff is for the 2,3,and 12 now that they are point numbers? Oh and the 11 too?

    What are the payoffs when you play the passline or come and what are the payoffs when you place those numbers.

    Is there still a field bet? Center bets still the same? Payoffs the same? Is there a website I can go to to learn all this stuff?

    Should I google it? I know, I know, I should've just googled it. But I rather the info come from you guys. VMB'ers are smarter than google.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. LV_Bound

    LV_Bound VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2010
    Messages:
    6,864
    Location:
    Florida
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    23
    I played it on once and thought it was an interesting variation to a game I love.

    I don't go looking to it but if wanting a fix and it's the only table around I will may play.
     
  16. DoubleUp

    DoubleUp Low-Roller

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2008
    Messages:
    410
    Location:
    Scottsdale
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    7
    i just asked the floor (at mandalay) , they said they said placing the 2 and 12 pays 25 to 5 and the the 3,11 pays 13/5 . ( true odds are 6:1 and 3:1) . (they said they just changed it and it used to be 27:5 on the 2,12).

    you can buy the 2 or 12 for a buck for a 20 bet.
    edit:
    these are pretty bad payouts . Some web sites say some places pay 11:2 for 2,12 and 11:4 for 3,11
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2020
    • Informative Informative x 2
  17. vetsen

    vetsen Low-Roller

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2009
    Messages:
    329
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    23
    If you find a place that collects the buy commission on the win, buying the rare numbers is about the lowest edge bet you'll ever find.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. WichitaMuskie

    WichitaMuskie VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2014
    Messages:
    1,041
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    15
    I don't math all that great, but I think 25 to 5 comes out pretty darn close to 5 to 1.
     
    Bizarro Kentucky Derby Trip
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  19. vegaskid74

    vegaskid74 High-Roller

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2009
    Messages:
    806
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    999
    You're correct that the place odds suck, but 5% vig on a win only is actually great odds. If my math is good that results in a 0.71% house edge on the 2 and 12, and 1.25% on the 3 and 11. The variance will be wild, but that's what we play craps for anyway, right?

    Amen brother. I may actually play a bit of this on my next trip just for the fun of it.
     
  20. ronc

    ronc VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,841
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    10
    I played on the crapless table last Wednesday (and maybe Thursday) at Luxor. The main reason was that the regular table was jammed at $15; the crapless one was at $10.

    I placed 6/8 most of the time. I also bought the 12 a couple of times and won it once. So, the house edge was pretty much not an issue since overall.
     
Tags: