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Counting Odds on Craps

Discussion in 'Comps' started by Naturaleight, Jun 13, 2018.

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  1. Naturaleight

    Naturaleight High-Roller

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    I know of a few casinos in Las Vegas that count odds bets in your avg bet at craps. So your avg bet can be 2000-3000 when in reality you're only losing 20 cents a roll theoretically speaking. Also if you play the "don't" side the house edge is even less. In addition to all the promos, tournaments, cash back, etc etc etc you may even be able to overcome the house edge.

    I know of a few places that count odds in your avg bet and I'm willing to trade info. Does anyone else know of other casinos in Vegas that count odds in your avg bet on craps? If you dont want to post publicly PMing me is fine.

    Thanks
     
  2. BayouBengal

    BayouBengal VIP Whale

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    When a casino counts your odds as part of your rated bet, they’re giving you less on the house advantage part of the Comp calculation. So it’ll tend to even out.
     
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  3. HJB

    HJB Low-Roller

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    How would we know if they are "other" casinos since we don't know what casinos you know that count odds....
     
  4. UKFanatic

    UKFanatic The Arbiter of Taste Caviar Kid

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    Agree with Bayou. You're not getting ahead in the comp game by playing at those casinos. Craps is still a low HA game compared to other options in the casino. And a busy table can play relatively slowly, which might help you in the comp game. But form my experience (not based on any math), craps has always felt like a very volatile game to me with lots of swings. So be ready to ride those out as you accumulate your comps
     
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  5. Hogman

    Hogman VIP Whale

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    I’m pretty sure the Craps players on this board know the casinos who count odds. I don’t believe it’s secret information just ask the box man or whoever is rating you they will tell you. And I believe whether they count odds or not your earned comps will be comparable.
     
  6. Naturaleight

    Naturaleight High-Roller

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    Trust me I know of a casino in Las Vegas that counts odds in your average bet, and does comp you at 30%
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
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  7. Calder

    Calder Low-Roller

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    I trust you. So which one?
     
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  8. Naturaleight

    Naturaleight High-Roller

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    Well I would like to be trading information for other information. This is not something I have been advertising. The only reason I want to try and find another place now is because I got in a fight with their accounting department when they tried to charge me for $1500 of stuff that wasn’t mine
     
  9. Naturaleight

    Naturaleight High-Roller

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    You’re right the swings are very bad if you’re playing the pass line. The swings are not as bad if you play the “don’t pass” along with “don’t comes”. Not to mention the house edge is less.

    People frown about playing the dark side, but trust me well worth it in the long run.

    At this casino that was on the strip they would shower me with the best stuff since I’m taking don’t pass and don’t comes with odds. They have my average bet as 2800 so they would give me anything. Their marketing department is just absurdly stupid.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
  10. UKFanatic

    UKFanatic The Arbiter of Taste Caviar Kid

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    That's not what Bayou and I are saying. The percentage of your theoretical loss that is comped (the 30% in your example) is the same for every game. What we are saying is that the casinos that include the odds wager in determining your average bet also adjust the formula (by adjusting the HA) to reduce your theoretical loss.

    I also don't understand why you're withholding information like its some kind of state secret (it hurts your credibility). These aren't secrets. This subject has been discussed on VMB for years!! Just do a search and you will find mention of different casinos that include the odds wager in the average bet.

    But I think you're still missing the point. If the casino includes your $2400 don't pass odds wager in its average bet, the formula is adjusted to reduce your theo. And a percentage of your theo is, ultimately, the comps you receive. Finally, if you really are averaging $400 line bets, it really doesn't matter if they count your odds bet or not. you're going to get good comps anyway.
     
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  11. BayouBengal

    BayouBengal VIP Whale

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    That’s not what I meant. The formula for theoretical loss goes something like this: hands per hour * bet * house advantage. If they don’t count odds they probably use about 1.41% to rate a pass line player. But if you take full advantage of 3-4-5 odds the edge is reduced to 0.37%. So if a casino is including your odds they are not going to give you the full 1.4%. A $10 pass line rated at 1.4% has an expected loss of 14¢. A $10 pass + $30 odds at 0.37% also has an expected loss of 14¢. The more odds you put down the more the house edge goes down.
     
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  12. Calder

    Calder Low-Roller

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    > sigh <

    Another cool secret club I can't join.
     
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  13. Naturaleight

    Naturaleight High-Roller

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    This is what I’m telling you guys. This is what I thought at first and that this was too good to be true. But this is not what the casino is doing. I’m basing this on asking my host what my average bet is, and then what my theo comes out to. And me theo always comes out to my outrageous avg bets x what the house edge is. So they are using the House edge, and that avg bet to comp me with. They are not shaving anything or taking anything away when comping me. When I figured this out the second time, I couldn’t believe it. It’s why they’re giving me insane freeplay offers, two story suites, and the gamut. With all the offers, promos, freeplay and events I’m invited to after doing some math, I’m pretty sure I’m playing a break even game in the long run, to a slightly plus EV game.

    I don’t mean to shove this in people’s faces and try to show I have it, and you don’t. But I recently got in a fight with this casino’s accounting department and their marketing department did not back me up. So I am looking for somewhere else to play and wondering if they are the only guys in town to offer this type of set up for comping. From the likes of it, it looks like they are. What’s even stranger is that they already identified me as an AP, and do not let me play blackjack. At one point I was up over $100,000 just from playing craps and was certain they were eventually going to kick me out but I lost some back and it never happened. I’m still up about 40k.

    If they are the only Casino in town to offer this type of comping, then I probably will go ahead and pay the outrageous bill they said I rung up. Even with 3k in comps I had accumulated that trip.
     
  14. UKFanatic

    UKFanatic The Arbiter of Taste Caviar Kid

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    So after already being identified as an advantage player and being backed off blackjack, you're now getting "insane" freeplay offers and comped two level suites from playing crap with $400 line bets plus odds? That's what you're asking everyone to believe (but not willing to disclose where you're getting these amazing comps)? Well, I already offered my opinion on your credibility, but each person reading this can draw their own conclusion.

    Also, maybe its off topic, but which casinos are giving "insane" free play for table play? I play larger than the OP at most places on the Strip and it has been years since I received much in the way of free play whatsoever
     
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  15. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    I think they probably don't bother reducing the HA calc if you play odds, There's 5 numbers in addition to the point. On a 3x-4x-5x table, you could have anywhere from 1 unit to 24 units in odds and they'd all have different overall HAs.

    I think the box probably just keys in your odds in a way so they end up in a separate bucket that has a zero HA. Much simpler.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2018
  16. Patman

    Patman High-Roller

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    There are too many factors including variance on the pit bosses.

    For the most part I believe that the odds are included in your average bet for most of the casinos that I have play recently in Vegas (mainly Mlife and CET but a few others). That didn't seem to always be the case, but lately my average would be high if I didn't include my odds.

    Then there would be differences between how casinos track and count your bets. I would expect that those that are computerized might break down your bet more as opposed to somewhere like Aria, which incredibly, still keeps track of you on individual manual cards.

    My most recent example is the basis for my comment.

    I generally bet pretty similar each time and at least these 2 sessions they were very similar. Pass line bet, 3x odds, place the inside numbers. Collect a bit and then press. Will place 4 and 10 if the roll is good. If I have been losing I will maybe only place 6 and 8 and do come bets. I tips the dealers during play and usually at the end, whether I am up or down.

    I was playing at a CET casino in Vegas last month one night. I won't say which one it is .................(it's the one with 100x odds :) ).
    The session was down then up and ended down, but I had pressed my bets several times. At one point, the pit came over and introduced himself and we chatted briefly. At the end I asked for my average and it seems about right (maybe a little high) but would have needed to count my odds for that number. The session was just under 2 hours.

    I played there the next day in the afternoon with a different pit and crew. Bets were about the same (maybe a little more skewed towards 6 and 8) but not too much different. I asked at the end of that session and my average was about $30 below that of the previous night. I politely commented that I thought that was a little low as my bets had fluctuated during the session. His comment was that most of the time when my bets increased it was from pressing my bets. I asked why that wouldn't count as much as it was still my money at risk (in fact it even was as I was down mostly at the time and just putting back in my original buy in). He didn't respond to that. The dealer confirmed that he thought the average was correct and that there were 4 bet categories and my odds and 6/8 bets wouldn't get as much. When I checked my TC's later, I only got about 35% of the TC's that I had gotten the night before. This session was actually over 2 hours, but later found they had me for less than 2 hours ( I had also lost about 1/2 hour).

    I went later that night and confirmed at the TR desk the time and the avg bet in the system in case I was getting some BS from the pit. It was recorded as stated. Same casino, different pit and crew, almost the same tracked time, and a difference of $30 avg bet ($125 vs $95). Huge difference in TC's earned which I can only attribute to having my bets rated differently.

    I have the image of the second pit etched in my memory, and while I will still continue to play at Cromwell, won't play when that pit is on.
     
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  17. Naturaleight

    Naturaleight High-Roller

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    Yes you can believe me or not, it makes no difference to me. I just want to know of a place whose doing what I’m currently getting.

    The reason you don’t get any freeplay offers is because you always play at mlife properties. Good luck getting any freeplay from them.
     
  18. UKFanatic

    UKFanatic The Arbiter of Taste Caviar Kid

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    I don't always play at mlife properties, which you could have easily concluded by my most recent TR, my comments on play at other properties, or even infer from my original comment that I play at most places on the Strip.

    I am just saying, there are a lot of inconsistencies in your comments. It makes your commentary less credible, especially since you refuse to give any details. I mean, you've already asked this EXACT SAME QUESTION two years ago, and Bayou actually answered it then:
    https://www.vegasmessageboard.com/forums/index.php?threads/casinos-that-count-odds.132117/

    Then, even though bayou had already answered your question, you asked it again less than three months later:
    https://www.vegasmessageboard.com/forums/index.php?threads/who-counts-odds-on-craps.134436/

    You were referred to another thread that already answered your question, which you participated in:
    https://www.vegasmessageboard.com/forums/index.php?threads/odds-bets-on-craps.134289/

    Plus, there are other threads covering this same subject. You're clearly looking for some information you haven't yet received, other than your recent requests for host referrals. If you aren't willing to share where you're getting those comps, where you're having disputes about thousands of dollars in charges, or where your play is already being rated so highly (you mention multiple casinos in your first post of the current thread), then you're probably not going to receive new responses different than what you received a couple years ago.

    That said, I hope you again find whatever info you're looking for :thumbsup:
     
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  19. Naturaleight

    Naturaleight High-Roller

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    LOL... two years is a long time. I think I would’ve found out what I needed after that time.
     
  20. SH0CK

    SH0CK Stylin' and Profilin' Quasi Tech Admin

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    it appears you are right and would have found if there were more than the few casinos?casino? you already know about...

    Since there isn't any real sharing of what casinos count odds toward comps and you're not willing to share either, I'm going to close this thr
     
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