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Cosmo Backend comps - am I just dense?

Discussion in 'Comps' started by bubbalv, Jul 22, 2021.

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  1. Kachow

    Kachow VIP Whale

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    Agreed. I got murdered in my last trip. I have significantly less than half that amount of coin in for a 5 night stay and actual loss was well over 4 times OP’s actual loss. That being said, while I generated less coin in for 5 days than I normally would due to the aforementioned murder, I still managed plenty of time on device by spending more time than usual low rolling at $1.25-2.50 a spin, and my host still knocked everything off the backend (there was only a few hundred dollars of room charges) So while I do believe Theo is generally most important, I also think hosts at Cosmo have some discretion to look at actual loss and take care of things for you. But at OP’s comp level which is a much more expensive room type being the wraparound and a free play that is many multiples of mine, I’m not sure they would be getting much or any on the backend.
     
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  2. dankyone

    dankyone VIP Whale

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    The bar is higher for back end (you are already there and likely done playing) than for mailed offers (they want you back)
     
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  3. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    Sure, but being told you were overcomped is not the same thing as being told you didn't play enough for them to cover any charges on the back end.

    "Overcomped" = "Underplayed"

    There's kind of a safety net because most of the time you're going to lose well in excess of what it takes to cover the comp, even if your theo falls short. If you're short $30 a trip, maybe nothing happens. But if you keep getting told you were overcomped, the algo should catch up to you and your offers should get shaved at some point.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2021
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  4. ReTriggerMe

    ReTriggerMe Stand Up to Jewish Hate!

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    Missed this thread while I was at Cosmo through yesterday, living some of these examples. And would have asked my host about some of the hypotheses. Here are some random responses to things I read in different posts.

    I think there may be some overestimating in assumptions regarding play for comps. I'm not playing at the level others describe, never spend a penny on property except for tips. Offers vary, including room type and freeplay... and I'd guess that the type of slot also matters.

    I would label myself "entry level hosted player" My host told me Thursday that she wants more players like me - I think shes relatively junior at Cosmo (slot exec, not host) and she's likely building her book. She's been very helpful for me.

    I have 10 nights at Cosmopolitan this year; one night was my status benefit.. Coin in at $100K, $7K loss on slots, $700 loss on tables. Includes my most recent trip where I felt losses were brutal, so my coin in was about 2/3 normal. My room offers (Terrace Studio Fountain View, no bigger suites) have never included freeplay or f&b. I wonder why my offers don't include f&b, as does my host, but my spend is always comp'd backend. Night before I leave, my host always tells me "you've covered the room through departure, all meals up to now... I'm putting $150/$100 in comps on your account for tomorrow's meals" (meals, not spend - no spa visit, etc)

    Things I've learned or have been told by my host.

    While slots/VP earn tier credits and points, hosts see everything. I felt "murdered" first two nights this past trip, so took a break at a low-min table. (Pai gow poker, mostly push, is a relaxing distraction - I expected no benefit) Next day, host noted "I see you played 3.5 hours last night, average bet $30, lost $100. There's consideration of of time played, bet, and expected losses and I can comp ten percent of actual losses" The tracking of time and bet-size is, of course, not new information. I knew they considered actual losses, but not that they could comp ten percent of actual table losses. Woo-hoo! That covered an ice-cream at Milk!

    A host has some ability to take a longer view, move comps around. As noted above, "I'm putting $150 on your account for food tomorrow...." I usually spend $35 on breakfast/lunch then depart, leaving comps unspent. My host moved some of those unspent comps forward to cover this last trip, where murderous losses had me play less.

    I played craps first time ever at Cosmopolitan because new Shoot To Win at $10 minimum. I see the losses on my win-loss. My average bet, according to the wagering screen, was $123, so who knows if the play was considered towards anything - I doubt it.

    I can report it happens with precision for slots. On the recent activity page on Cosmopolitan website, there's clear notation of 2X vs 3X points for slot play on July 22, the day I became Platinum.

    I was upgraded to 1-bedroom Fountain View by Cosmo for occupancy management purposes. There were no studios available. My host assured me that, when they do it, the higher room rate differential does not need to be covered by play.

    And, FYI, Cosmopolitan is so heavily booked out into the future at present, host cautioned me that redeeming my earned comp nights on weekends will be challenging - impossible through October. I won't be surprised if my next offer isn't available weekends. My interpretation... we all know and try to work the comp system. But cash is king in any business. If people coming to town and paying cash for hotel rooms, meals, cabanas and spa treatme nts... it's going to be harder to book offers. The business may bet that new cash-paying guests will spend enough and play enough, that they can afford to frustrate or even lose some comp'd marginal players. Whales need never worry.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2021
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  5. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    In reading your post there were a couple of things I picked up on.

    You say your offers don't come with throw-ins for some reason, maybe your play mix has enough tables that it puts you on one side of the fence for that.

    But my throw-ins are typically worth $300 and I only average $4,000 - $4,500 a night, and I normally can get up to a One Bedroom. And you're averaging $10,000 (I dunno what the mix of slots and VP is). If it's mostly slots, your machine play is easily generating enough to cover a One Bedroom plus provide back end.

    My impression from reading some higher level players' account of using actual loss for comps has been that actual loss would have to be let's say, some multiples of your theo loss before they would use it as a substitute. So my impression is that it's not "whichever is more" in every case, it's "once your actual gets to a certain threshold."

    And you had a 7% loss on machines, which even if it was all VP, I'm not sure would get you into that category of getting comps based on actual.

    Just on the surface, it looks like your offers might be coming in low by omitting a pretty healthy amount of FP & dining credit. Which means you have a lower nut to make in the first place. Maybe the lack of throw-ins has something to do with your stay lengths, I always just think in terms of my own stays which are almost always 4 or 6 nights.

    I definitely agree about how booked Cosmo is. I had to rejigger an August comp reservation earlier this week. Although it's funny - I previously only qualified for a Studio with no FV on this next trip because of the rising prices, but like you, they ended up having to put me in a FV because they had no regular Studios. Bless 'em for bumping us both up instead of down.

    ETA: on the Shoot-to-Win craps. I dunno if you get any points or tier points for it, but if they track it, I don't see any reason why that theo wouldn't count. Bubble craps, they don't even have card readers there (last time I played), so there's no way to track it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2021
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  6. ReTriggerMe

    ReTriggerMe Stand Up to Jewish Hate!

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    I don't think that's it. I play 98% slots. Rarely sit at a table, and until this past trip, I'm sure it's well under one-hour per trip.

    I never played VP in LV until June trip. It's a tiny portion of my play.

    My host thinks it's odd that my offers don't include freeplay or f&b. She advised we wait and see, maybe I'm playing past some old history. My offers are always 4-nights, I just usually book 3-nighters.

    Personally, I think there are a lot of little flaws in all of the players clubs' offer algorithms. Tiny bits of code stick My initial stay was a promo offer for a free room. I reached out to Kevin for the new player match. Showed win-loss, offers from MLife and Wynn with freeplay and resort credit. He upgraded room to 1-bedroom Fountain View and invited guest check-in... did not match freeplay or f&b.

    Here's a different example as to why I have this hypothesis regarding imperfect computer algorithms.

    I achieved Identity Gold November 2020. Expired Nov 2021. Early 2021, everyone's status extended through Dec 31, 2021. Mine wasn't. One month difference, I didn't make a fuss. But I asked my host about it this week. Her reply "that happened to a few of my player's who kept visiting during Covid. I think the computer was programmed to extend expiration for those who didn't have activity, but overlooked those who kept playing. I can get your status extended if you want."

    I don't think it's intentional. I think the systems are complicated, often relying on edits, etc. Maybe there's some stray item stuck in my account that blocks freeplay and food & beverage.

    Maybe it's because I have almost $1200 worth of Identity points on my account, most of which can be converted to freeplay.

    I really don't care that much about the f&b as long as I keep getting the back-end. A little freeplay would be nice.
     
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  7. bubbakitty

    bubbakitty Doing retirement again and happily so....

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    What’s great about this board is Yeppers you may be the pigeon at the table. So you learn from it. Few can say they have not felt the same situation whether valid or not. :rolleyes:
     
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  8. Marky147

    Marky147 VIP Whale

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    I usually play for about 7-8 hours a day at low stakes, and my offers are 4 nights Terrace Studio FV ($50RC & $25FP).

    I think I average ~$2.5k p/n play over a week long trip.
     
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  9. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    Yeah I agree, there's fluky outlier things lurking and happening in every system.

    A few years ago the address that shows up as the default in my CET TR account profile online somehow switched to my work address, that they could only have gotten from a line of credit application. I still get regular mail from them at home and never got any at the business address.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2021
  10. ReTriggerMe

    ReTriggerMe Stand Up to Jewish Hate!

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    There's a word I haven't seen or heard in a year, or twenty. ;)
     
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  11. SunshineSlayer

    SunshineSlayer High-Roller

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    Yeah, it seems a bit odd to me as well. I'm 100 percent slots at Cosmo and average 4,500-ish (coin in) a night as well, yet I receive terrace one bedroom 3, sometimes 4 night stays with a little bit of freeplay (Just $75, but still something).
    I also do a decent amount of resort spend though. I go to the Spa, have several meals, purchase from the gift shop, etc. ReTriggerMe, are you doing much resort spend?

    Also, at 100k coin in - was the vast majority of that coin in only on the most recent trip? Maybe offers just haven't caught up quite yet.

    I was told by a host that even on slots, WHAT you play on slots does matter as well. Do you play much of say the Britney Spears, Game of Thrones etc variety? Or more of the old school type?
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2021
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  12. ReTriggerMe

    ReTriggerMe Stand Up to Jewish Hate!

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    100K spread fairly evenly across trips and per night since March, until this week, lower spend.

    I'm more inclined to go for newer, graphic intense video games, but enjoy some older video as well. Not many mechanical reels. Probably play Firelink more than any other. If I listed the machines I played more than once this past week, the count would be approx 40 machines. Plus some try once.
     
  13. pressitagain

    pressitagain VIP Whale

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    You’re in the same ‘strange zone’ as I was with MLife. Inexplicable.

    I used to read how players were offered better suites. More RC and FP. My play was much higher. My offers have vastly improved over the past couple of years.

    Do your thing and hopefully things correct itself….
     
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  14. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    I think that may be part of it. The FP calculation is based on cumulative coin-in on trips going back over a certain amount of time. I found that out when my FP dropped quite noticeably although I had been playing at the same average daily level for a long time.

    Turns out I had one extra-long stay (and a correspondingly high total coin-in amount on that stay) a couple years ago that finally dropped out of the calculation.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2021
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  15. AyDee

    AyDee is getting too old for this

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    Mea Culpa, I checked with my more sober companion, and
    it was 7% overcomped,
    6 figure loss for back end consideration.

    so nice job fact checking me,
    :oops::thumbsup:
    like i said, few hundred thou, a mill, all the same to me,
    ain't ever trying to lose that much...

    here's a new to us: we got $40 FC for not requesting maid service at check in.. that was cool.
    we get no FC and are on the same teaser $75 FP we started at...

    I'm really curious what happens when you check in and they always need to get on the phone to upstairs, we're kind of getting to check out every different room in our repeated stays..
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2021
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  16. Flowers

    Flowers VIP Whale

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    Agree on the seven figures point, unless that is including numbers to the right of the decimal point! Seven figures in the traditional sense would mean a MILLION+ in losses. That can't possibly be right. I could see a threshold of FIVE figure (10k+) losses coming into play for backend comps depending on the length of comped stay and what other up front comps were offered.

    A FIVE figure loss (with a strong theo as well as I play a long time) is pertinent for me at Wynncore for significant backend comps and I'm sure it is pertinent at Cosmo for slot or VP players as well.

    ETA: Just read @AyDee's note about 6 figures. Honestly, that still doesn't seem right to me when we're talking about loss expectation for back end comps tied to a few nights' stay. No way is Cosmo "tighter" than Wynncore on comps -- I've heard nothing but the opposite -- and yet, five figure losses, depending on other circumstances, are definitely pertinent for back end comps at Wynncore. I would argue even four figure losses, based on personal experience, are pertinent if the theo is there but at Wynncore, theo is paramount my sense even more so than most places. I've had significant WINNING trips and with significant back end comps, all because of theo.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2021
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  17. Flowers

    Flowers VIP Whale

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    I can't emphasize enough the "heavily booked"/through October point.

    My host keeps me pretty updated about Vegas and the ability to obtain X, Y, Z as many of the significant benefits, e.g., tickets to hot concerts or fights, a limo to an event on a busy Saturday night, or even a reservation at SW or Delilah, are more difficult to come by given purely demand and supply. He told me some time ago that it has been busier on weekends than pre-pandemic Vegas for a while and has become only more so as there is the added activity from significant pent up demand plus major new venues and draws to Vegas, the most significant being Allegiant Stadium. Now some of the main restaurants are fully booked on Wednesdays and Thursdays.

    And this is all without international travel of significance having returned. When that happens I can only imagine how hectic things will be.

    This is all great for Vegas and the additional activity also means more Vegas excitement but it does mean planning more and also potentially adjusting expectations for back end comps though what the Cosmo host said to @AyDee about losses was just wrong. (Seeing now updated post, thanks @AyDee!)

    On a somewhat related note, I had drop in VP play at Cosmo in April, after dining at e upstairs. I had played for about an hour and had one small VP jackpot, and less than a month later I'm already getting an offer for 4 comped nights. There's no free play, or F&B, but I was surprised at how quickly the offer came so soon after my drop in play.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2021
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  18. Travel Fanatic

    Travel Fanatic The Arbiter of Taste Caviar Kid

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    I don't know what the Cosmo policy is for consideration of backend comps, but what @AyDee is now saying is more consistent with my experiences. The times I have lost sox figures at Cosmo (or come close) my host has taken care of everything on the backend (F&B, spa, shopping). But there are times I have lost in the 30k range and even won and she has taken care of all the remaining F&B charges for me. Granted, it usually wasn't a lot (no more than a couple hundred bucks), but it probably demonstrates that there is some host discretion if your theo justifies the comps
     
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  19. Kachow

    Kachow VIP Whale

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    One of my favorite things about Cosmo is how quickly they get their offers out for you to try to book another trip. I could be fuzzy but it seems like 7-10 days after I check out I’m getting another offer. As someone who books their trips a minimum of 3 months and sometimes 6 months in advance it is very valuable to me to know where I stand with them. I book through a host and he usually books those offers for me but at least I know before I talk to him what he’s going to offer.
     
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  20. AyDee

    AyDee is getting too old for this

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    Let's just say I'm reporting from the guppy/small fish level of interaction w. hosts. at Cosmo.
    We went a little harder, though only 2 nights, w 2 days off-went downtown to enjoy a Cal room, but made Gold with a little spend, so it will be interesting to see how offers change.

    Our Circa host has been much better, and super responsive, maybe it was our previous history with a One Host, but ymmv, I'm hearing grumbling about them too.
    Really bummed they have no soaking tubs and the suites are kinda sorta ;) "non-smoking"

    Let's also all agree with the busier it gets, the less attention you might get,


    is so true and somewhat frightening, I need to book my next trip soon,

    Last thought, it was the busiest I've seen at Cosmo / Downtown during a Mon-Thur Trip, and we were doing late night vampire schedule.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2021
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