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Video Poker Casino and Player Reasoning Behind Game/Paytable Selection

Discussion in 'Video Poker' started by notfromconcentrate, Jun 29, 2020.

  1. notfromconcentrate

    notfromconcentrate Connoisseur of dive casinos and obnoxious outfits

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    I suspect you’d know the answer to this... can (or do) casinos up the limits on video poker games at the request of the player? I feel like if I was a casino operator and was comfortable taking action on a certain paytable at $1 or $2 denom, why not $5, assuming my casino could afford the variance?
     
  2. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    In general, no, but if you're a big enough player they might consider it. I've heard some requests granted. This is the most famous one. Because CET fucked up over it.

    http://www.liontales.com/2007/04/lucky-me.html?m=1

    As for not offering 9/6 Bonus Deluxe at $5 single line, not totally sure why they don't. They can definitely afford the variance at that level. Maybe they believe their average $5 player will settle for 8/6 or less. If one can get half of the coin-in on 8/6 vs. 9/6, the 8/6 game will likely make more money.
     
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  3. thecarve

    thecarve Misanthrope

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    I resemble that remark. :oops:

    In my defense, I am an alcoholic...:rolleyes:
     
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  4. 3OfDiamonds

    3OfDiamonds Vegas is Fabulous When You Degen Responsibly ;)

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    Damn I’d take a f**k-up like that on a dollar machine - I’m not being unreasonable, riiiiiight? :evillaugh:
     
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  5. notfromconcentrate

    notfromconcentrate Connoisseur of dive casinos and obnoxious outfits

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    Perhaps this is a silly question (and I apologize if this de-rails the thread too much... please feel free to delete this and reply by DM if you believe that's in the best interest of the TR)... but I'm puzzled as to why a higher-denom player would voluntarily settle for a lesser paytable. As a general rule, it seems that the more you're willing to bet, the better rules/playing conditions you'll have access to (e.g., better blackjack rules, lower slot holds, 0/en prison vs 00/000 roulette).

    I'm curious as to why this is different for VP.
     
  6. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    Depends on how "informed" the player is. There are plenty of players at all sorts of denominations that don't hold a clear belief that paytables are what dictate your long term return. I know tons of regular players at local casinos that will play machines with inferior paytables because of their luck is better on the weaker paytable.

    For example, let's say a player plays 100k hands of 9/6 JoB and goes Royalless, he/she also plays 8/5 JoB for 100k hands and has got 5 Royals. I expect the average player to want to play the 8/5 machine, even if it's a poorer choice in the long term.
     
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  7. alexm

    alexm High-Roller

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    @tringlomane jumping off of that, would you happen to know what exactly a casino has to go through to change the paytables on a video poker machine? Obviously there is the physical opening and adjusting, but are there regulatory steps as well. I feel like that could certainly be an impact.

    Also could a casino just change a machine for one single player. I know big players can reserve tables and such, but can a casino basically set up a machine that only one person is allowed to play? My understanding is that even on a reserved table if I am willing to play for that minimum at those rules, the casino should offer that to me as well, either there or somewhere else.
     
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  8. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    Ive always heard paytable changes need regulatory approval. But how involved that is I'm not sure. But i would assume basic changes like a single level downgrade from 8/5 to 7/5 DDB would be accepted quite frequently. I also doubt the commission would prevent a major strip casino from offering $5 9/6 Bonus Deluxe (99.64%) (or even better payback games) either, it's just the casinos choose not to.

    Machines can be reserved for periods of time by players, but generally the machine must be available to the public to play.

    I'm not sure how much they can share about questions like this, but @44inarow and @Cosmopolitan_SlotVP would probably know more about the technical procedures than I would.
     
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  9. Cosmopolitan_SlotVP

    Cosmopolitan_SlotVP Cosmopolitan Rep

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    In Nevada, no approval is required. We can change games/themes/paytables whenever we want.

    Paperwork still has to be done (to make a change) as at anytime, if GCB showed up and wanted to know what is running on a game, we need to be able to provide that. But that doesn’t get submitted or anything for approval.

    In theory, I can setup a paytable for a customer and then take it off after s/he is done playing. Not something I have ever done though. I didn’t read entire thread to see if there were any other specific questions being asked.

    -KS
     
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  10. 44inarow

    44inarow VIP Whale

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    Yep, for VP it's just a matter of changing paytables. Changes to an RNG can be a little more involved, but that doesn't really apply for video poker due to the requirement that it mimic a random draw from a standard shuffled 52-card deck (i.e., you can't weight certain cards like you can with reel stops).
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
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  11. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    Thanks guys, I appreciate the input.
     
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  12. 44inarow

    44inarow VIP Whale

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    It's not necessarily that any specific machine has to be available, it's that gaming spaces and gaming activities have to be available. It's NRS 463.0129(e):

    "To ensure that gaming is conducted honestly, competitively and free of criminal and corruptive elements, all gaming establishments in this state must remain open to the general public and the access of the general public to gaming activities must not be restricted in any manner except as provided by the Legislature."

    There are exceptions, and I could digress further into the rules about the private salons, but that bores even myself.
     
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  13. 44inarow

    44inarow VIP Whale

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    This is the case across the board. I always go back to my stories about seeing people at a full $50 6:5 table next to an empty $50 3:2 table. I'm puzzled too, but there we are.
     
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  14. notfromconcentrate

    notfromconcentrate Connoisseur of dive casinos and obnoxious outfits

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    I completely agree... though generally speaking, blackjack rules usually improve with higher minimums. While $50 and even $100 6:5 tables certainly exist, the bulk of 6:5 tables are lower minimums, and tables with “good” rules (3:2, S17, DAS, etc.) are typically found at higher minimums.

    What had me puzzled was Tring’s comment regarding the average $5 player settling for a 8/6 paytable when 9/6 can be had at $2 and below.

    In the blackjack example, players who bet more can usually command better rules in exchange for a higher minimum bet. Though that doesn’t seem to be the case with VP, based on what Tring said.
     
  15. 44inarow

    44inarow VIP Whale

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    I was saying that the average retail gaming customer who's neither a frequent gambler nor someone who spends their days on Vegas-related message boards simply does not notice or care. I'm going mostly by Aria because that's my usual haunt, but on a normal day, 3:2 is available at $50, but there are often $50 6:5 tables right next to them with the exact same rules other than the blackjack payout. And I very often see people at the 6:5 table when an identical 3:2 table is empty.
     
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  16. thecarve

    thecarve Misanthrope

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    In general, as the denominations increase, the HA does decrease as it does with other games. However, for obvious reasons, you won’t find any of the >100% return games at the higher denominations. And while 9/6 Boner Deluxe isn’t a +EV game, I suspect that during various promotions where comps/tier points/etc. are multiplied, a savvy gambler might be able to turn it into a +EV game when comps are taken into account.

    I’ll also add that vpfree2 shows exactly two casinos (South Point and The Plaza) in Vegas that have $2 9/6 Boner Deluxe (and I don’t even know if those two casinos offer $5 Bdlx). So, for all practical purposes, a gambler must drop down from a $5 game to a $1 game to get the best paytable. Obviously, willfully picking a game with a higher HA isn’t terribly rational. But, a $5 game and $1 game provide completely different experiences. And some folks just crave the action that the pricier game offers.

    I don’t think that I could ever choose the inferior game just because I wanted more action. But I never really have to make that choice since I’m a strip guy and there isn’t any 9/6 Boner Deluxe on the strip. Plus, I’m usually playing DDB. (Of course, I’m sure we could have a similar conversation with DDB as well.)
     
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  17. wernerw

    wernerw Low-Roller

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    Here in Austria the Casinos have "Las Vegas Blackjack" (Wow!), 6:5, min 5€ and regular Blackjack 3:2 min 10€.

    As you know it is cheaper to play 3.2 with 10€, but that is ignored. And lots of people play sexy Las Vegas Blackjack with bets far beyond 10€
     
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  18. oghuman

    oghuman VIP Whale

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    I play mostly DDB multii-play 3,5,10 play machines at CET. I usually play $1 sometimes $2. These machines are pretty much all 9/5. In AC and Vegas I do find 9/6 DDB on single play $1 & $2 denomination machines. I don't play $5 very often because it generates hand pays for quads. I get enough W-2G now I don't need bunches of $1,250 W-2Gs. I'm OK with 9/5 but I don't like going below that unless there it's a novelty game I don't usually play for longer periods of time.
    Side story: two years ago in Vegas CP I was playing my favorite multiplay machine at $1 level. The elderly (compared to me- means he's OLD) was play 10-play DDB as far as I could see. I would play for a a while and then move to the machine on the infant of us. I was wondering why he kept moving back and forth. It turned out that he was play $5 and he constantly was getting hand pays. To me it makes no sense to have to stop play so often, It takes the fun out of it. Not the winning, but the stoppage.
     
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  19. eliza

    eliza VIP Whale

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    Yep. My "high roller friend" loves VP. Only wants to play Triple Double. Doesn't care about paytables. Doesn't think they matter. Only cares about whether a machine is "lucky". I love him, but sometimes he makes my brain hurt trying to follow his logic.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2020
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  20. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    Try to steer him to the 30-coin flushes? Lol 35 coins is too much of a pain in the ass to find. Lol