1. Welcome to VegasMessageBoard
    It appears you are visiting our community as a guest.
    In order to view full-size images, participate in discussions, vote in polls, etc, you will need to Log in or Register.

Table Games Blackjack Conditions

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by topcard, Jun 26, 2015.

  1. HuskerBB

    HuskerBB High-Roller

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2007
    Messages:
    944
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    37
    Good news / Bad news.

    Just got back from a trip last week. On Thursday morning walking through Aria they had an open 3-2 Blackjack table at $25 minimum. Wasn't there on Friday either in the morning or evening - so I am sure it is a rarity - but it was the first time I had seen playable blackjack at Aria under $50 in the last several trips. I used to play at Aria a lot - but have not for several years because I don't like going over $25 minimum tables - at least not during the day which is when I would typically play there.

    I would call that very mild good news - now for the bad news (which is much more significant to me).

    On Friday night the tables where I play most of my blackjack at Planet Hollywood - a circle of six tables just outside the high limit room - were all set at $50 minimums. In the past they have sometimes had one of the six tables at $50 or higher - but most of them were always $25. On Saturday night I think four of the six were at $25 but was really disappointed to see that Friday night as I don't want to give up my $25 minimum table play there. Even worse news (sort of) they also had the row of tables that extends over toward the mall entrance (on the south side of the Heart bar) open. I just walked by because those tables are usually all 6-5 crapjack - but noticed that one of them was a $25 minimum 6-5 table. HATED to see PH have a $25 6-5 table. They have obviously had 6-5 in the Pleasure Pit area and at some other low limit tables for some time - but really did not like seeing a $25 table with horrible rules there. I have a feeling that I may be shifting even more of my blackjack play to Cromwell in the future. But FWIW I will say that the group of six tables I am talking about was absolutely DEAD on that Friday night - even though it was generally a busy night in town (Valentines Day and a holiday weekend with President's Day on Monday). I am sure they took in less money that night from those tables than they did the next night when 4 of th 6 were at $25 and the area was mostly full. Hopefully some of the bean counters pay attention to that and learn a lesson from it.

    My next trip is March Madness and I was already assuming those tables would be set at $50 then - just because it is March Madness. So that won't be a good test - but hopefully we will still see playable $25 blackjack at PH on normal weekends and evenings.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  2. Southpaw33

    Southpaw33 Low-Roller

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    314
    Location:
    Denver
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    20
    Planet Hollywood has jump their limits a little bit more lately but I don’t think it will last. My fiancé actually works in pleasure pit and quite a bit of the time she’s either on roulette or what they call the fishbowl in front of high stakes. They used to have $15 tables at pai gow but now most of the time they are 25 as well. The nice thing about fishbowl is that it is always 3:2. I don’t think that will change even though the rest of the pleasure pit is 6:5. Cromwell is still the best hands down for table limits and payouts. We like to go there quite a bit when she gets off work.
     
  3. topcard

    topcard Celebrating 40 Years of Vegas Trips in 2020!

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2012
    Messages:
    6,696
    Location:
    Fort Worth
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    93
    I always hope that they can recognize logic, but if the strip has proven anything, it's that they do not (Cromwell & TI aside).

    One would also think that Binion's would recognize that $5 & $10 3:2 is available everywhere else (except Nugget & 4-Queens) downtown...and even the Nugget & 4-Queens have $15 3:2.
    ...but, no...I guess their bean counters prefer a slew of empty (or nearly empty) 6:5 tables.
     
    Rebooked April trip to May, and now rebooked again - to June.
  4. hail2skins

    hail2skins High-Roller

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2011
    Messages:
    969
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    30
    Interesting stats from John Mehaffey (who recently released his 2020 table game survey that I linked to another thread) on Twitter today:

    John counted 199 6/5 tables on Strip in 2011, most either in single-deck or in party pits, and 6/5 blackjack was in roughly 2/3 of the Strip casinos. In Dec 2019, he counted 568 6/5 tables on the Strip, with every Strip casino having a 6/5 game.

    John said there were 26 6/5 tables downtown in 2011; now there are 46, mostly at Binions, 4Q, and GN.

    Edit: Additional information that John tweeted:

    2011 Strip: 199 out of 984 tables (20 pct) were 6/5; now 568 out of 925 tables (61 pct) are 6/5
    2011 Downtown: 26 out of 181 (14 pct) were 6/5; now 46 out of 172 (27 pct) are 6/5
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
  5. jacmrose

    jacmrose Low-Roller

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2016
    Messages:
    208
    Location:
    Washington DC
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    12
    I would love to know the percentages nationwide. I feel like I’ve seen 6:5 at the majority of casinos I have been to over the past few years including the east coast and mid west.
     
  6. hail2skins

    hail2skins High-Roller

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2011
    Messages:
    969
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    30
    Jake, obviously we know MGMNH is a 6/5 hellscape. Was curious how often you make it up to AC, and your observations of the blackjack conditions there. Does, say, Borgata, Ocean, and Hard Rock have many 6/5 tables?
     
  7. Kachow

    Kachow Low-Roller

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2019
    Messages:
    291
    Location:
    OKC
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    8
    I’m pretty sure all Pennsylvania casinos are required by law to have 3:2 blackjack. The 3 casinos I’ve been to in Oklahoma (Newcastle, Riverwind, Winstar) are all 3:2 blackjack that I have seen. Also I believe the casinos I’ve been to in Louisiana (lauberge, GN Lake Charles, and Coushatta are all 3:2 as well, although I could be mistaken on Louisiana.
     
    Anniversary week Kickoff at Encore
    Back to Bellagio
  8. boxofbirds

    boxofbirds Royal Flushless

    Joined:
    May 23, 2014
    Messages:
    2,139
    Location:
    Seattle
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    22
    3:2 is required here in Washington as well!
     
  9. BlacklabberMike

    BlacklabberMike VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2014
    Messages:
    5,177
    Location:
    Where's Ware?
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    25
    3/2 at encore and mgm springfield... CSM's at less than $25, dealer hits all 17's. 6 deck shoe at $25 and up. DAS, Spilt 4 times including aces, surrender, dealer stands on all 17's

    Think I will pay them a visit Saturday
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
  10. HuskerBB

    HuskerBB High-Roller

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2007
    Messages:
    944
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    37
    I would be curious to see that 6/5 table # is 2015 vs. today. I do think most of the expansion of 6/5 happened between 2011 and 2015 or 2016. It has not changed that much the last couple of years - in CET casinos I would guess there might even be less 6/5 than there was in 2016 in relative terms.
     
  11. HuskerBB

    HuskerBB High-Roller

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2007
    Messages:
    944
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    37
    I play some at the casinos in Iowa - they have 6/5 - but relative to LV there would be a smaller percentage of 6/5 tables relative to 3/2. That said they also are relatively heavy in the related games - free bet blackjack, and they have something called "down under blackjack" where you essentially are told whether the dealer's hole card is a 10 or not. I have not seen that game in LV anywhere and I don't know what it pays on a blackjack.
     
  12. BlacklabberMike

    BlacklabberMike VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2014
    Messages:
    5,177
    Location:
    Where's Ware?
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    25
    Conditions are I stated.
    Funny thing happened today.
    I was playing in the usual green chip pit and doing pretty good'
    MGM has a bonus bet that pays out for certain hands,etc.
    The lower tier must be paid out by $500.
    The dealer looks are and says only one other player is betting the bonus and I might want to take a shot.
    I NEVER play those bonus bets, but I decided to take a shot and bought 5 reds.
    On the 4th hand, the counter stops and he says I just hit it for $487.50.
    The pit critter came over and verified it and told the dealer to pay me.
    I gave him 2 greens . Too bad it had to go in the toke box and not his pockets.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. hail2skins

    hail2skins High-Roller

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2011
    Messages:
    969
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    30
  14. Headache 21

    Headache 21 Low-Roller

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2014
    Messages:
    477
    Interesting. I actually felt anecdotally that I noticed more 3:2 tables on my last two trips than in the previous couple of years.
     
  15. jacmrose

    jacmrose Low-Roller

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2016
    Messages:
    208
    Location:
    Washington DC
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    12
    I think Caesars has been adding 3:2 while MGM is adding even more 6:5
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  16. Headache 21

    Headache 21 Low-Roller

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2014
    Messages:
    477
    That would make sense...the properties I tend to frequent for blackjack are all CET
     
  17. Farner

    Farner Low-Roller

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2017
    Messages:
    384
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    52
    I have notice over the last year before lockdown that there are many 3:2 games everywhere, but no DAS, no surrender etc. I believed that the casinos know that we all pay attention to the BJ payout and often forget the other rules.
    I found that the dealers are all very open about all of this. So before I sat down, I asked about payout (confirm 3:2) as signage can be confusing, DAS, early surrender.
    I find it super frustrating when I sit at a 3:2 table (already commit to a high minimum bet) and than realize all these other nitpicky details.
    Also, I never bet any side bet, not play ‘free blackjack’.
    A dealer at Aria once told me that if the casino spends money on modifying the tables or even makes new ones, that adjustments much be in their favor. And whatever anyone is saying, you end up betting the odds against some of the best mathematicians money can buy.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. The Rumor

    The Rumor VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2015
    Messages:
    3,829
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    20
    CET moved fast on 6:5. They had 6:5 in all the party pits at places like Bally's, O'Sheas (old one), Flamingo, etc. They had worse games than MLife. But, they held off on downgrading the game much lately, and they put in all 3:2 at Cromwell. CET likes to offer some sidebet on all of these games for extra cash.

    We've seen others really move since then - MLife crushed their low limit tables, and Venetian gutted it.
     
  19. The Rumor

    The Rumor VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2015
    Messages:
    3,829
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    20
    It's true there have been some adjustments over time, but if you start with the following assumptions, you're likely close to what the rules are at a standard, $15 6-8 deck shoe game with a live dealer:

    - Split up to 4x
    - Double any two
    - Double after split is allowed
    - Dealer hits soft 17
    - No resplit of aces
    - Surrender is allowed

    There are obviously exceptions, in particular in party pits with the lowest table min. Caesars Palace has had some notably horrible party pit games over by the club.
     
  20. Crawfordesquire

    Crawfordesquire Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2011
    Messages:
    689
    Location:
    north carolina
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    13
    at the table you are a consumer. if you care about the conditions, ask before you put your $ out. otherwise it's on you. we all know what happens when you assume.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1