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Any cure for the terminally low-roller?

Discussion in 'Las Vegas for the Frugal (not Cheap)' started by MisterJJ, Jun 23, 2012.

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  1. marksind

    marksind VIP Whale

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    A Good Promo to Make You a High Roller

    I'm not an engineer, but from a cheapskate perspective, perhaps worse - a CPA. Still, I love Vegas and go three to five times a year. I've accepted that I'm a chronic low-roller and have learned to enjoy the challenge of trying to choose games and use skills (and coupons) that give me the best chance of a positive return. Even so, I usually finish down overall. I don't mind helping them pay the light bill, I just don't want to help them build any new buildings!

    Like several others have suggested, video poker is a great game. I spend most of my time on that, playing max bet nickel or quarter games. Believe it or not, there are "full pay" machines at those levels, mostly downtown (where I now stay, since gaming on the strip has worse odds). Blackjack is also a good game, but like you, even $5 hands make me nervous when I hit a losing streak.

    I just got back from a trip, and took advantage of a loss matching promo at the Riviera to be a "high roller." Google it and you'll find it easily. It's a straightforward deal and worked for my friend and me as advertised. I put $200 into a $1 video poker machine, chosen from VPFree2 info (great website) and played $5 a hand. That's way more than I've ever played, but they match 50% of the loss in free play the same day, and the other 50% the next month (good for a year). I lost $100, then hit four aces and won $800. That was exciting! Cashed out with no loss under the promo, but then my friend put in $200 and played (we were pooling our play and loss/gain). He lost $200, so we went to the Player's Club and got the immediate $100 comp free play and went to a quarter machine. Hit four aces and cashed out for $250. Net win was $750 for the day, and he's got $100 free play next coming next trip.

    Long winded, but the idea was that with the free play rebate, even if we lost it all we could run the free play once through a "full payout" machine and probably recoup most of what we'd lost. That got me over the fear of betting big. I don't know when the promo ends, but if it's still on next time you go, consider it. High rolling with much reduced risk!
     
  2. Viva Las Vegas

    Viva Las Vegas Elvis has left the building

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    As my income has increased over the years, my risk tolerance has decreased. This is likely more due to a function of being younger and less wise / careful than anything else.

    While I could afford to play more, currently I enjoy playing at lower levels. I used to play black and purple chip blackjack. Now I am happy playing green chip (blackjack), $0.25 Full Pay VP (& non FP 9/6 JOB) and limit poker ($4/6-$8/12 is my preferred level).

    I am comfortable with bringing $1,500-$2,000 for a 4-7 day trip and $2,000- $2,500 for a 10-14 day trip and nearly always bring back half - all + back. If things run bad, I can cut back / do other things for the rest of the day (or two). I have won on 16 trips and lost 21 trips.

    You can never win all the chips/every trip. People always think about the upside of "riding a streak" and do not think about the downside of betting higher limits until after the session.

    My suggestion is to slightly increase / press your bets during a good streak. If you have the magical run that you dream about, you will win bigger than you have before and it will be under your terms, with a bankroll and bet size that meets your comfort level. There is no reason to bump up your play throughout the trip (win or lose), especially since you sound like you would be uncomfortable doing so.

    Anyway, that is what I have learned over a few decades of Vegas. When you are enjoying the game, the bet size is irrelevant. When you are not enjoying the game, regardless of bet size, it is time to take a break / walk away.

    Good luck.
     
  3. MisterJJ

    MisterJJ Low-Roller

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    Interesting idea. Not sure I can go with slots. I haven't played slots in over a decade because I know how much better odds I can get at BJ or VP. But maybe forcing myself to accept the greater chance of losing for the greater chance of a significant win will help. Perhaps doing the same thing on $1 VP would be more doable for me.

    Although... I tried to do the $100 loss rebate at Cosmo, thinking I would quit if I was up $100. Well... after getting a few good VP hands I chickened out and quit when I was up $50.
     
  4. Bruinfan1

    Bruinfan1 Tourist

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    The objective is to lose the money at a game you enjoy...but lose it quickly. Rip the bandaid off; don't peel it away slowly. You probably won't be happy when you're down $350, $400...hurry and finish and get it over with. If you're looking for break-even or minimal loss, then I don't think your mind is adjusting to the idea that a large monetary loss is perfectly acceptable. The objective of the slot example is that you will lose all your money and lose it quickly and painlessly. Even have fun doing it (hopefully). Not thinking about losing or the "value" of losing, just doing it and enjoying it. Winning would be...:nono: I can't imagine a $500 $1 VP bankroll would go quickly - could take a day or more at which point you're thinking about the loss, or bailing out on the experiment.

    Once secure in the knowledge that you can lose more money and still feel comfortable doing so, you can return to your preferred pursuits, larger bankroll in hand and comfort level enhanced. Maybe - no idea if this would work.

    Of course, if playing slots for you is the equivalent of betting on "0" at the roulette table...there's no value in playing a game you don't like. But playing a game that has poor odds is kinda the point of this - you've got to come to the conclusion that losing a large(r) sum of money pointlessly feels just fine.

    Maybe Pai Gow is your game for this challenge - although losing $100 or $200 on a single hand might be a little more painful than helpful. With slots, like VP, it just slowly drains away...just like the beer! :beer:
     
  5. shifter

    shifter Degenerate Gambler

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    bottom line you're either born a gambler or you're not. if you're born a gambler, you will always press the envelope and bet higher and higher when you can afford it. if you're not, you never will feel comfortable no matter how much money you have.

    when i was younger i would go to the casino with $500 or $1000 and play at $5/hand where i could find it. but business went well and one trip i just decided to take $10k. 2 more trips after that it was up to $20-30k per trip. within a few months i went from being a $5-10 player to $500-1k per hand. these days i don't even blink when putting $5k out on a hand. it was easy for me to become more comfortable with higher levels of play because it's just in my blood. i just needed to have the resources.

    you know you're not a gambler if you hate the thought of losing more than you love the thought of winning. gamblers always have the dream of the big win in front of them that keeps them going even when they're losing. it sounds like you're just not a born gambler, which is OK, but that means you're never going to feel comfortable with a bigger bankroll.

    of course this is all within the context of what you can really afford to lose. if you're gambling with your mortgage payment, that's a disease that needs treatment.
     
  6. ken2v

    ken2v This Space For Rent

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    Let's just sticky this up to the VMB Wall of Wise Words.
     
  7. Joe

    Joe VIP Whale

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    A very good summary Shifter.:thumbsup:
     
  8. elswam

    elswam Some day I will have a JACKPOT

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    I believe this situation depends on each one of us, the perception of winning or losing is different, for me and my wife is to budget the money going to play for the days that we have to be in vegas, if we can excellent win is a bonus that gives the trip, and if we lose even if the budget we have a feeling of emptiness. I guess it little or much money, if you lose or win it all goes in relation to entertainment that you had on the trip.
    obviously we all want to win in Vegas,this is my opinion.
     
  9. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    Let me ask this: do you still have fun low-rolling?

    If its still enjoyable, there is no reason to change your amounts. Have fun and low roll. No rule says you have to play big because you make more.

    If it feels like a waste of time because anything you win isn't significant, then we get to Shifter's post.
     
  10. theshaah

    theshaah High-Roller

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    I'm going to do something here I usually don't do, and don't really intend to do but I think I'm going to hijack some of this thread to explain my feelings on how the OP and I are very alike.

    I'm 33. (I'll be 34 in 2 weeks), this year I'll pull in close to 40k (pre tax) working as a flight attendant (albiet one who works a lot of hours) I've paid down my debt to next to nothing (I have about 1500 more to pay on my car and I'll be debt free) I try to keep my bills to a minimum where except for food all of my bills are a smidge more than 1200 dollars a month half of which is my rent.

    I have always low rolled. I thought it was a gas to go to vegas, bring next to no money, and have a great time when it was all said and done. Lets put it this way...on my last trip (about 2 weeks ago) I paid $8.79 TOTAL for a 3 night hotel stay in Downtown Las Vegas. I spent about 10 bucks on transportation. About 50-100 on food. And I ended up winning just a smidge over 100 dollars playing slots and blackjack. The trip basically "Paid" for itself.


    I will be in Las Vegas a total of 4 different nights in July (And maybe some more on my own time) for work. I intend to use that opportunity to break myself of some of my low rolling ways. This is what I plan to do and maybe the OP can follow my lead.

    #1. I plan to redeem the $100 in free play from the cosmo and use it playing a longshot slot like the megabucks. If I lose, I will take the free play they give me and try to cash it out playing the blackjack machines which is what I usually do when I'm given any kind of free play. I find it lasts longer in these machines.

    #2. The plan on taking a $500 dollar stake and playing The Hangover slots. I will play the money through one time and one time only and take the remaining cash and put it twoards paying off the balance of my car.

    Anyone feel like these are good ideas to feel kinda like a "mid" roller from a cheapskate low roller tightwad?
     
  11. MisterJJ

    MisterJJ Low-Roller

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    Yes and No. I do still like to just sit there and play $5 chips and not worry much about winning or losing. But there's also times when I feel that winning or losing doesn't really matter at such low stakes so I lose interest. Increasing bets makes me more interested but more uncomfortable with the loss risk. I'd like to gain the interest of the larger bets without feeling so uncomfortable.

    However, I'm not interested in moving up to black or even green chip play. I would just like to play $10-$15 regularly and throw $20 out there once in a while and not break out in a cold sweat.

    My "big bet" story:
    I was playing blackjack and counting cards, mostly for the challenge and interest of it. The count got very good and I put out the biggest bet I ever made... $20. My heart was beating a bit faster. I got a pair of 8's and the dealer showed a 6. I split and got another 8 so I'm up to $60 on the table. Heart is racing. My first hand pulls a 2 so I double and get a 19 total. Next hand gets a 3 so doubling again puts $100 on the table. I start to wonder if others at the table can hear my heart pounding. I pull a 21 on that hand and an 18 on the last. The 21 helps me calm down... slightly. The dealer turns over a 4 under his 6 and my heart revs up a little. Then he gets an 8 so I push one and win $80. I had to take my chips and leave while my heart settled down.
     
  12. shifter

    shifter Degenerate Gambler

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    that's simply not possible. the way that you extend your comfort zone in anything is by pushing it. the more times you bet $10 or $15 the more comfortable it will be. but you have to do it enough times when it's uncomfortable in order for it to become comfortable.
     
  13. Bruinfan1

    Bruinfan1 Tourist

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    And you won't press your bet if you don't increase your bankroll - the combination of, "My gambling (today/this trip) will be over if I lose this bet!" and "I can't believe I'm betting this much on one bet!" is a killer. At a minimum, increase the bankroll if you ever want to bet "big" dollars. Opposite advice of what a degenerate gambler needs to hear...but you don't sound like the type of person who will ever bet their kid's college tuition.

    BTW: That whole heart-pounding episode...isn't that how you're suppose to feel for gambling to be fun? Or am I missing out?
     
  14. Auggie

    Auggie Dovahkiin

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    You can't go after those big wins without the risk of big losses.

    The easiest thing to do might be to just have a budget/bankroll set before you go down to the casino.

    If the budget you have is one you are comfortable with losing, then it shouldn't really matter how you lose it (barring being totally stupid).

    An example would be if you are going down to the casino and you have a budget set at $500. If you go to the casino and you are playing penny slots at 25 cents per spin and you grind for twenty hours until your money is all gone, other than the time its the same net result than if you went to the casino with the same $500 and played nickle video slots at $2 per spin and lost the whole $500 in three hours.

    In this example in both cases at the end the player has $0 money, so other than time it doesn't really matter how they lost it.

    Thats how my wife and I do our gambling budgets up for trips to Las Vegas:

    First allocate money for the entire trip, a sum we are comfortable with losing.

    Then we get a rough idea of what we are going to do each day. Some days will have heavy gambling sessions (IE: we start at 10AM after breakfast and we intend to play until 2AM before heading up to the room) and other days will have less gambling (IE: we sleep in until 11AM, order food up to the room for breakfast, go to the pool for 2 hours, go shopping and see some sights, head back to the hotel and nap for an hour, go out for dinner and then by then its 9PM and we'll play until maybe midnight before turning in for the night).

    Now even though our gambling on the second day is obviously a lot less than on the first day, that doesn't always mean the budget will necessarily be that much smaller. Instead, the budgets could even be the same... with the difference being the first day we are concentrating our play on penny slots or cheap video poker and stretching our play out over the course of the day and on the second day we might have the same amount of money but instead we're playing penny slots at four or five credits per line, playing a few nickle slots and even a few dollar slots or dollar video poker.
     
  15. MisterJJ

    MisterJJ Low-Roller

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    No, I don't think you are missing anything. I think you are simply a "gambler" whiler others are not. If you're a gambler at heart the heart pounding excitement is what you crave. Non-gamblers dread such a thing.

    I love all the insights shared so far. I never really thought about the fact that while I enjoy gambling I'm not really a gambler at heart. I think the part of gambling that appeals to me is the challenge, since I'm a very competitive person.
     
  16. WIZARD

    WIZARD You're gonna need a Bigger Boat

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    Low roller

    I am also a low roller, but can afford more, but I know where I am comfortable.

    My saying is;

    "I hate losing alot more, than I like winning"

    so I keep the betting small and just enjoy the experience.

    WIZARD
     
  17. keno60

    keno60 VIP Whale

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    Vp.25 job

    Here are some places for .25 Gold Coast, Sam's Town, 4 machine at Ellis Is., Palace Station, Alliante Station. NY NY, no comps, LVH they even have it at the.05 level, 4 Queens, Main Street Station, California just to name some.
    Again if it isn't your milk money and you would not give it to a worthy charity,
    just enjoy.
     
  18. crussader

    crussader Low-Roller

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    This is the approach I took and have never regretted it.
     
  19. Nevyn

    Nevyn VIP Whale

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    The only other suggestion I can give is to try a different way of budgeting/planning your trips.

    If you're primarily a BJ player anyway (so you won't hit a life-changing jackpot that would make the below unwise), try the following.

    Budget for your trip with all the gambling bankroll counted as an expense (just like hotel/airfare/food/entertainment), and give yourself a rule: the budgeted money must go.

    So if you lose, you lose. If you win (or partially lose), you're just going to have to find a way to spend the money (fancy dinner you wouldn't normally buy, fancy item from the shops you wouldn't normally get, upgrade to a lavish suite for last day of trip, spa, etc.)

    When its not really money you're "supposed to" keep, it might blunt the nervousness. But if it doesn't, there's nothing wrong with walking away, or only playing when you want to low-roll
     
  20. MisterJJ

    MisterJJ Low-Roller

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    So many interesting ideas. I kinda like the idea of taking $500 and plan on blowing it on a slot machine. Heck, I've dumped $500 on a speculative stock before (it bombed). I'm just not sure if I can actually go through with it.

    I've tried the budget thing but when I sit down at the table it becomes very real money, chips or not, and I fret over every $5 chip. Well... not really. I don't fret over the $5 chips until they start returning to their home in droves.

    Poker is something I've avoided because the game is a challenge against others... something I really like. I might be considered a "gamer", in that I spend a lot of my spare time playing computer games. I'm afraid I will start reading books and spending lots of time playing poker. It may sound odd, but I want to avoid having this happen. Similar to how someone with other addictions might avoid booze, drugs, nicotine, etc. Plus, I have a terrible "poker face". I am a horrible liar because it shows in my face.
     
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