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Almost laughed at for asking for back-end comps

Discussion in 'Comps' started by Sf49ersy5, Feb 9, 2020.

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  1. Cashman

    Cashman Tourist

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    I have asked my host and it depends. Sometimes I play 9/6 JOB at $25/hand which only results in a $500 ADT. But I have been playing Buffalo Gold and my ADT on penny slots can be anywhere from $2000-$3000. I recently had a $5000 loss on a no stay play while I was waiting for family to eat lunch. My comps went through the roof after that. But I play at CET Tahoe and I was always under the impression that room charges did not count toward back end comps there. Certainly not the FP I get. The rooms are not that expensive on weekdays during the slow months. I don’t ski and never go when a concert is going on. The nicer balcony suites are usually under $250/night.
     
  2. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    Oh, if you're playing VP that's a different ballgame.

    Table games are well-aligned with slots at 50c per TC, but VP is definitely NOT.

    20k TC at 9/6 JoB is only $920 theo at optimal play. So that would justify about $276 in comp value, imo.

    Sorry, I thought you were also a table game player.

    Maybe @tednancy could be of assistance here. He has good VP volume at Tahoe.
     
  3. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    Applicable room rate is def a mystery. Some percentage of rack. What percentage I dunno, but i might guess roughly 2/3rds.
     
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  4. easy_money

    easy_money High-Roller

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    Right, I stand corrected. Saw 2000 for some reason vice 20000.
     
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  5. alexm

    alexm High-Roller

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    I think the general consensus is that it's all part of the "game". Win or lose, I expect the comps to be there and believe I deserve something more. We honestly stopped playing at 2 different places when they wouldn't comp things "because we won". I am spending my money on entertainment and a losing proposition. In exchange for that I expect to earn something of benefit. I never complain about losing and I don't ask for any more or any less than my coin-in dictates I should "deserve", but like in any other industry the person who spends more or pays more typically gets more, and since it will rarely just be offered while on property, you typically have to ask.
     
  6. FABismonte

    FABismonte Tell my wife I am "about even."

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    A host I truly appreciate will tell me my theo. That information helps me gauge what I can expect and so makes life easier for her as well as me as expectations are mutually set. Keep in mind that not all video poker machines (even play on the same game schedules) are set for the same theo. In CET, you can expect about 30% of the theo in comps and I understand the rooms count at the "casino rate" for discretionary comps purposes. Unless there is a reason, I don't agree to a CET suite as it cuts into discretionary comps I want to apply to things such as massages or tickets.
     
  7. Ashton7

    Ashton7 Low-Roller

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    Have they changed the way they usually figure the comp value of a room? I see lots of calculations here saying the Aria room for three nights would equal $700 in comps for instance. When we had a host at Mlife for years she always told us they comped the rooms at $50 value no matter what the actual cost was. For instance, on the stay where she told us that we were there over Christmas and New Years. The players rate they’d quoted me for New Years Eve was $450 but she comped that night and all of the other most expensive nights using a $50 comp rate. So we also had dinners and shows comped. We stayed 17 nights. Our bill before comps was $4500. After comps $1200.
     
  8. VegasBJ

    VegasBJ VIP Whale

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    I do not think the $50 comp rate is currently accurate. On busy weekends, a Skyloft 1 bd can be over $1000 comp rate, a 2 bd is $1500. When I stay in the Mansion, the Comp rate is often well over $2k per night. Depends on weeknight or weekend, is it a fight weekend, SB, NYE, etc.
    But, I don't think nowadays they are charging $50 Room rate against your comps. Increasing the amount they charge against your comps via your room rate helps them use up all your comp value, it also increases the "paper value" of the transaction for the hotel, as the hotel is billing the casino for the comp room. Average room rate per night goes up, casino uses a higher room comp value against any comps you have earned, and the hotel wins both ways. Really a bunch of paper transactions, but looks good for the shareholders
     
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  9. Cashman

    Cashman Tourist

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    To clarify: my host told me that 9/6 JOB has a 1% hold at CET Tahoe because they figure most people don’t play perfectly. So even after a lousy 2000 ADT over 4 days at 500 per day with 5000 TC per day, I was still getting over 800 bucks in backend comps every trip. So I should have only been getting 600 total comps, but I was getting a suite for 3 nights, FP, dining credit, + the 800 folio covered. So the room comp remains a mystery. I am a big tipper. Maybe that helps? @tringlomane I didn’t know you were referring to table games. Thanks for the info. I am playing Buffalo at 12-15 a spin now, so I should reach an ADT comparable to a 10% hold + this next trip. I want to do a trip report for the first time.
     
  10. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    Yeah, sorry I wasn't clear I was talking about tables. Sounds like you have a good host. And if you take care of them well, they are often more likely to be generous.
     
  11. tednancy

    tednancy Tourist

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    The % of theo rules of thumb in this thread and elsewhere definitely do not apply to VP in CET Tahoe. I have never tried to push the envelope to find the limit because I don't want to rock the boat (and there's nothing worth spending extra comps on there).
     
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  12. jgates8

    jgates8 VIP Whale

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    Then it just leaves the mystery of what the 'casino' rate is on the comped room at any given time. I just booked April (Easter weekend - have to get those 5x TC) and host comped the 6th night I needed upfront. I was actually hoping to see what it was offered for $ wise so I had a clue at to what the casino rate was for at least the normal weekday nights lol!!!!!
     
  13. Ashton7

    Ashton7 Low-Roller

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    Lol you’re obviously playing way above my level. It was a regular room. I’m sure the rate has gone up too. That was like fifteen years ago. What struck me about what she said though was she only needed to charge off that set $50 comp value per night no matter what the actual rate that had been quoted me. Maybe they don’t do it that way anymore. I usually just book online and get comped on the front end for rooms enough to make me happy.
     
  14. easy_money

    easy_money High-Roller

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    I think @VegasBJ is agreeing with you, just that he explained it in a different way and stating that a low price like that, even for off-peak is gone now. Now that you stated it was 15 years ago, it makes sense.

    Applying comp rate for room against back-end comp pool still holds true. I see many people asking or quoting casinos/player rates and/or comp rates or using it interchangeably, which I think is different. For example, the market/published/rack rate could be $300, and the casino/players rate could be $250. But the comp rate is $150, which is what the hotel side is charging the casino side, which is also what the casino/host is charging you against your back-end comp pool. Lots of times, the market/published rates fluctuate a lot, but the comp rate "usually" remains the same, unless the hotel side decides to charge the casino more (holiday, events, etc).

    I've actually ran into an interesting situation once, where I was with my host at Caesars front desk sorting out room situation since I had 3 rooms and there was an issue with it. Host was actually behind the counter checking on the computer and noticed the comp rate and asked the FDA about it. I heard him specifically state "it should be $125, not $175....". FDA said that's what they were told to input, so my host went to talk to the manager I believe. It was for a regular Augustus tower room, 5-6 years ago. After a couple minutes, my host came back with the FDA and it was "corrected" to $125. This lead me to understand, know, and believe a few things. First, FDA's have access to change the comp rate. Casino and hotel side usually have a negotiated comp rate, and it can change depending on several variables. Finally, the way my host reacted leads me to believe getting charged more takes money/profit away from them. Even though it's just a paper trail or internal accounting, we all know the less casino/hosts give and/or spends, they more they make.

    Final note on room comp rates. I've never been denied or ignored when I asked my hosts what the comp rate for my room was. They've all disclosed what my comp rate for the stay was. Anyone been denied when asking for room comp rates?
     
  15. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    Every time I've been specifically quoted a rate as being casino rate (a couple on-strip and a couple off-strip), it's been 60% - 70% of the full retail rate.

    During times when I can't get fully comped at V/P and Wynn, the discount offers I get also fall in that range (like $129 when the retail rate is $199 - $209).

    When I call CET to add paid nights onto a comp stay, the rates they give me almost always fall in that range.

    There's this weird thing MLife is doing for extra nights where it almost looks like they have the casino rate calculation backwards and haven't figured it out yet. I'm only paying 38.5% of retail for one of the nights and 37.5% for the other two. But it could be that they're just applying excess available comp value, because I know my "per night" cap is around $219.
    upload_2020-2-14_4-42-45.png
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
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  16. killswamper23

    killswamper23 Low-Roller

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    these bean counting scum don't understand the pyscology behind running a casino.

    first of all even you really can't comp anything extra nobody should be laughed at ever.

    second of all someone who loses 800 dollars and gets nothing back from the casino feels way worse than someone who loses 1,000 but gets 200 back. the mob understood this. just small tokens keep people coming back over and over again to keep losing money.it's amazing how many hosts/casinos don't understand that these days.
     
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  17. ritzcarlton89

    ritzcarlton89 Tourist

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    I’m posting here to hopefully give some helpful information to someone looking for it.

    Two things:
    A) many years ago when they started charging resort fees to comp rooms and I knew very little about comps, I was forced to pay these fees despite more than enough casino play to warrant not to pay them. I was asking the wrong department. I was asking the front desk (hotel operation) to waive them not knowing that they were two different departments- hotel and casino. So eventually I got in touch with a casino Host who was a senior level host, and we got to talking on the phone when he was appalled that I was forced to pay the resort fees. When he asked me if I could have one thing I told him upfront I don’t want to pay resort fees. Like ever. Since then, I don’t ever get charged resort fees in comp rooms ever. Lesson I learned Get in touch with a good Host. Find one that will say yes. And “develop” host relationship. I would not give up until you find one that will say yes or at least gives you a good explanation as to why they can’t.

    2) For some reason I think mlife coin in calculations and tier credit accumulations are off, many machines are $10 coin in to 1 point (no longer is the majority $3 for 1 point) and they have started some opaque way of earning express comps as I saw my account and can’t figure it out (don’t want to try either). I would use coin in for the trip rather than tier credit and use roughly 10% to calculate Theo. A more accurate way to calculate Theo is using the formula (avg bet x hours played x house advantage x decisions per hour). Unfortunately you won’t likely get this information on your own so if your host won’t give you the Theo at least you can get the other variables from your host (they won’t tell you house advantage but you can use 12% for slots) and can calculate yourself.

    Now at a place like Aria, if you are having a winning trip don’t bother they won’t backend (which is BS) but I’ve had no problems getting backend with huge losses with same play. I’ve had the least amount of problems getting backend comps at Wynn, I credit that to my awesome host.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
  18. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    It's definitely better to use coin-in than TCs to try to ballpark your theo from slots, but when they made the changes, they didn't mention PointPlay (ie. points) or Tier Credits, just Express Comps. Although if they've switched a lot of machines to $10 per point instead of $3, and they're not marked, you're really gonna have to pay close attention on your first few spins so you can see what the ratio is.

    I don't recall seeing anyone here do an actual measured session yet since they made the change, but I don't read every single TR, so somebody may have done it.

    upload_2020-2-15_7-9-41.png
     
  19. ReTriggerMe

    ReTriggerMe High-Roller

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    Monitoring TCs on the app... no problem
    Knowing win/loss for trip or even session... no problem
    Watching a slot info screen to determine 10:1 or 3:1... no problem. (I enjoy some machines I know to have been on the floor for years. Will be there this week... will pay attention.)

    But I dont know how I'd monitor my coin in. Short of counting every play, multiplying by bet, and keeping some spreadsheet app running on my phone.

    Coin in is reported in the online win/loss; how close to realtime is the the win/loss info in my MLife account online ? I've seen TC, points, express comps update on my app. Never checked the win/loss while in LV.
     
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  20. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    1. You have to know whether the machine you're playing is $3/point or $10/point, you'd do this by seeing how many points you got for the first $10
    2. Then you'd track your session points earned at each machine. Pen and paper if necessary. Multiply points by 3 or 10 to get your coin-in for the session
    3. The website coin-in info for machines for MLife should be pretty much-real time, although I think it may not update for a session until you remove your card. So that's an alternative to paper tracking as long as you remember to check it after each session. And if you only play slots, and no VP, you're good, you don't really have to track it manually for coin-in purposes.
    4. A mix of coin-in across $3/pt and $10/pt slot machines wouldn't throw off estimating theo, but as soon as you mix any significant amount of video poker in, you're screwed on estimating theo because the W/L statement counts all coin-in the same. If you play both slots and VP, you have to know the coin-in split of each to estimate total theo.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2020
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