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A Few Questions about Optimizing Eligibility for Cosmo Comp Offers

Discussion in 'Comps' started by YOleven, Aug 18, 2018.

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  1. YOleven

    YOleven Tourist

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    Hi everyone.

    I’ve been a loyal Cosmo patron for the last couple of years, ever since taking advantage of a “Welcome Offer” from Kevin. Since my initial visit, I’ve stayed at Cosmo for all or a portion of each Vegas trip, and for many reasons, Cosmo has quickly become my favorite property to stay and play at when in Vegas. I’ve maintained Gold Identity status for the last year and a half (currently through May 2019), and I’d say that typically half of my 20,000 tier points toward Gold come from gaming, while the other half come from resort spending. That said, I realize that gaming activity (and not resort spending or Identity tier) is ultimately the major factor in determining hotel and free play offers. I usually visit Cosmo twice a year, and since I upped my play at Cosmo a bit (and ultimately achieved Gold in the process), I’ve been receiving 4 night comped offers from Cosmo on a relatively consistent basis, occasionally with $25 - $75 in free play.

    As many Cosmo regulars have already acknowledged, Cosmo tends to be very generous in terms of comped offers. That said, I’m very happy that I’ve made it “on the list” to receive comp room offers (and 4 night comp offers at that), even given what I consider to be my relatively moderate play. While there’s no concrete formula or guidelines for determining eligibility for these comp offers, I’d like to do my best to optimize my play at Cosmo so that I remain eligible for these great offers. I have a couple of specific questions that I thought I’d ask here, but to give an idea of my level of play which is relatively modest, here are a couple of examples of my typical slot / VP coin-in at Cosmo over a couple of trips. Thanks to the new Identity website, this information is easily accessible...

    Fall 2017 Trip:
    (Stayed nights 1-4 at Cosmo on comp offer, stayed nights 5-6 elsewhere)
    Day 1: $ 530 slots, $ 0 VP
    Day 2: $ 640 slots, $ 288 VP
    Day 3: $ 750 slots, $2500 VP
    Day 4: $ 550 slots, $1900 VP
    Day 5: $2200 slots, $1900 VP
    Day 6: $2100 slots, $ 650 VP
    Day 7: $1000 slots, $ 0 VP

    Spring 2018 Trip:
    (Stayed nights 1-4 at Cosmo on comp offer, stayed nights 5-6 at Cosmo on Gold tier annual comp nights)

    Day 1: $ 500 slots, $ 0 VP
    Day 2: $ 200 slots, $3100 VP
    Day 3: $1200 slots, $2000 VP
    Day 4: <Info not available online>
    Day 5: $1000 slots, $2800 VP
    Day 6: $5000 slots, $1200 VP
    Day 7: $1400 slots, $4000 VP


    A couple of years ago, I spoke with a very friendly and helpful host at Cosmo (unfortunately I can’t remember her name) regarding an Identity question. We chatted for a while, and as I recall, one thing I took from our conversation was that in terms of qualifying for comp offers, time played tends to count more than denomination played. I’m just curious if others would tend to agree with this statement. I would think that ultimately, one’s theo would be the determining factor (whether it’s high denomination for a short period of time or lower denomination for a longer period of time), but perhaps time played factors in as well.

    I play primarily slots at Cosmo, but usually in the evening I’ll enjoy a few cocktails at Chandelier while playing VP for a couple of hours. My guess is that in terms of qualifying for offers, time played on slots tends to factor in more than time played on VP. That said, is there a point where playing VP could actually dilute or be detrimental to one’s overall play?

    I usually stay at Cosmo for 4 nights, then spend another couple of nights at another property. However, I frequently stay next door at Aria, and I’ll find myself visiting and playing at Cosmo, especially in the evening when I’ll often drop in for a couple of hours of VP at Chandelier. Although I drop in and play at Cosmo even on days that I’m staying elsewhere, my play tends to be lighter than on days that I’m staying at Cosmo. While it seems a little counter-intuitive, could stopping in and playing a little at Cosmo on the days I’m not staying there actually be detrimental to offer eligibility, as it might dilute my daily average?

    Ultimately, my goal is to have a great time at Cosmo and in Vegas and play whatever and wherever I’d like, and I don’t want to focus too much on the factors I’ve mentioned above. However, there’s definitely quite a bit of value in being on the list for consistent comp offers from Cosmo, so I’ll definitely keep in mind anything I can do to optimize my chances of remaining “on the list”.

    Thanks to anyone who might be able to offer advice!
     
  2. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    I don't agree with that at all, with the following exception - if you are playing at extremes as far as $ per spin.

    I don't think the casino will look at 5 spins at $1,000/spin the same way they look at 1,000 spins at $5/spin slot or 5,000 spins at $1/spin. And I don't think playing 10 cents a spin for 24 straight hours is going to get them to throw limos at you.

    But I don't think time spent on machine makes any difference if you are talking about the difference between playing $1 a spin or $5 a spin. At those levels, $X theo from $1/spin should be just as good as the same amount of theo from $5/spin.

    I play $3 - $5 a spin on slots (occasionally bump it up to $6 - $10 for part of a session) and I don't spend any more than 2 - 3 hours a day playing. The offers I get are exactly in line with what I expect given the theo I think I'm generating. This is true at every casino I play at, including V/P which makes a point of quoting requirements and play stats to player in terms of time and average bet. V/Ps offers do not bear out their supposed requirements. I play the same way there and get the same offers I get everywhere else.

    Time on machine should just be a function of the casino putting in games that make you want to play more. It should be mostly meaningless (except for the exception I noted) for offers.

    You and I can sit at the same exact machine and do the same amount of coin in at the same denom and $/spin and generate the exact same theo, but I play twice as fast, because I'm solo and just cranking it out, while you have a friend playing at the next machine and you're chatting and you stop to watch when he/she gets a bonus, and you're messing with your phone constantly, lol. So you spend twice as much time as I did. Or I'm playing $2 denom and you're playing $1, we play at the same rate, but it takes me only half the time to generate the same theo. Why should our offers be any different?

    As far as how you spread your play, if you're a casino hopper like you say, you just have to play however you like and let the offers fall where they may. If you want to maximize comps, play where you stay (or within the same chain).

    Your first trip could be looked at two different ways:
    1. Two "trips" with separate ADTs.
    2. One seven day "trip" with a single ADT.
    I don't know exactly how the casinos do their algos, so I don't know which is more favorable. It depends on how they weight each historical ADT. If the most recent trip gets weighted way more heavily than past ones, then method 1 would be more favorable for the numbers in your first trip. If they smooth things out a lot, then method 2 might be more favorable.

    Also looking at these ADTs either way, I'm probably being a little conservative on my theo calcs, but they seem low to maintain 4 night offers at Cosmo. You're not even coming close to covering the room. So something might be off in your numbers, you may be low-balling yourself somehow. If I bump the slot theo to 15%, the ADT numbers come out as $110 / $277 / $182, still low.

    upload_2018-8-19_8-14-43.png
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018
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  3. YOleven

    YOleven Tourist

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    Thanks for the thorough analysis, Chuck. Plus or minus a few dollars in either direction, I'm pretty sure that the coin-in values listed in my original message are fairly accurate, so like you, I'm a little surprised at the offers I'm receiving given my relatively moderate level of play...not that I'm complaining! Without knowing exactly how Cosmo's offer algorithms work (and I'm sure it's a complicated, automated process), I guess the best bet for my upcoming trip in a couple of weeks is to play at levels similar to my last couple of trips, and just hope for the best. Again, I focus a lot of my play at Cosmo primarily because I really enjoy the casino layout and atmosphere, but at the same time, qualifying for 4 comped nights is a very nice bonus!

    In terms of daily average, is this a factor that most casinos look at when determining offer eligibility, or does it tend to be be based more on overall theo? In other words, if I drop in at Cosmo for a couple of hours on a day I'm not staying there but play a fair amount less than on the days I was staying there, I suppose that would negatively affect daily average, but I'm not sure if daily average is a factor that's usually taken into consideration. On top of that, would daily average even be taken into account on days that you're not registered at the hotel under a comp offer, or would play outside of a time period where you're staying on a comp offer all just be considered "bonus" action?
     
  4. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    I think it's a little of both. Some people use the "trip theo" phrase, but nobody's ever really defined it.

    A walk-through when you're not staying there and you just run $100 through a slot to kill time, there's probably a way they filter that out if you have prior history. Where the line is drawn between counting a $5,000 coin-in walk through and not counting a $100 walk-through, these are the mysteries.

    Or if you walk-through on 3 consecutive days, is that 3 ADTs or 1? How about if you walk-through every other day for two weeks? 7 ADTs, or 2, or 1?

    I don't play that way, so I've never been able to determine the effects first-hand on offers, I've only been able to see the effects after ramping coin-in up or down during a stay of typical duration, and that turns out pretty much as you'd expect.

    I did take a one-night comp and MGM Grand once and did only $200 coin-in, and also did a $100 walk-through at Mirage when I wasn't staying at an MGM property at all on the trip, and my offers weren't affected. The first might fall into a 'hall pass" category and the second might fall into a "tiny walk-throughs don't count" category.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018
  5. Lovegas95

    Lovegas95 High-Roller

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    Thanks OP and Chuck. I’m constantly amazed by the discrepancy in free play offers between myself and others on this board that APPEAR to play similarly as I do. I understand these offers are not Tier-driven, but when coin-in and time played are about the same I’d be inclined to think offers would be the same. I ran just under $15,000 coin-in at Bellagio over 2 days. My free play is $75. I get 4 nights Fountain-view but thought that might generate a little more free play as a result. Now I don’t expect Bellagio or Cosmo to offer the same as MGM or Luxor for the same amount of play. How donI know where my best bang for buck is?
     
  6. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    I judge offers by the total retail value of the room for the nights I want to stay (at full retail price, because I have an idea of casino rate, but don't know for sure) plus freeplay plus resort credit. It;'s easy to compare offers across different chains that way.

    Comparing offers within a chain is different - who's to say what the best bang for the buck is? At Mlife, as you go down in the property pecking order, the freeplay and resort credit amounts will increase in a given offer cycle. So it depends on which you value more - better surroundings or a higher amount of cash-equivalent comps.
     
  7. 720deckers

    720deckers Tourist

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    A393B10F-2B4C-482B-9291-9155C509372C.png 05BBA832-FC79-4E02-99FA-A57F10FED3CF.jpeg Long time lurker and first post but I was wondering the same thing . I have a trip booked at Cosmo on an offer match and I had never visited till yesterday but I emailed my Cosmo host this question and he replied with this
     
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  8. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    Yeah that makes sense. The only thing I'd say is about his/her comment about your first stay determining what offers you get for the next 12 months - it may be more of a clue that they consider the last 12 months of play when calculating offers, rather than as a literal statement that your first stay is more important than subsequent ones.

    So you go stay and play for two nights at your normal level and it's good enough to generate a new offer for 4 nights and some freeplay and resort credit. And you book that for 3 months down the road. I don't think you could stiff them on that next trip and expect to continue to get good offers for another 9 months based on your first trip.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
  9. TIMSPEED

    TIMSPEED Comps on my account, or blood on my knife.

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    Cosmo goes off of trip Theo; for sure.
    Your trip can be however long you want; to reset it IIRC it’s same as MLife, 72 hours off property and it’s a new trip.
    Without a doubt, EARNED comps are the most generous at Cosmo. (We just ran through $25k in a day; $10k slots/$15k VP) and earned $200 in identity points. (We’re Platinum)
    The same play at CET or MLIFE would have only earned like $25.
    Although on the flip side; it’s only ONE property, with uber expensive food choices, and unless you’re a whale, you’re not getting invited to any of the casino events (super bowl, NYE party, Kentucky Derby)
    It’s all in what you want out of a casino.
     
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  10. picantel

    picantel Newbie

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    I got the exact opposite view from Kevin at the cosmo. I went through there twice for dinner and played a few hundred in slots without staying there. My third time I sat down for a few hours without staying there also and did over 5k coin in. I got an offer for 2 weekdays comped and nothing else. I was then told those first 2 times hurt my average but he was able to up my offer. I do not understand why 2 tiny trips for dinner hurt me but they did.
     
  11. Grid

    Grid Well-Known Member

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    First I'd like to point out that @Chuck2009x is my Hetro-Lifemate. And we seem to agree on most everything. From how hairy we like our midgets to how dry we like our martinis.

    With that said, we have varying views on the whole "TOD" debate. I agree with everything Chuckles has said above. An old lady playing $1.00 a spin and averaging coin-in of $10K a day over 5 hours or me playing $5.00 a spin and averaging $10K of coin-in a day over 1 hours should be the same theo, and thus the same expected comp rating.

    BUT, over the past 5 years of reading up on analytical software runs by casinos and talking to slot/marketing Directors, Time on Device seems to be an actual thing.

    In my above, Grandma and her 5 hour a day habit will be rated higher then me. Even with the same theo. Why? Our view of Average Daily Theoretical Losses is no longer the same as the casinos new fancy way to attach a better "value" to us players. We are mostly used to thinking penny slots, at 10% hold on $10K of coin, = $1K of actual losses. How fast or slow we got there shouldn't matter. BUT, when factoring in TOD (Time on Device) they expect to earn more from Granny then they do me. I play higher for shorter periods. That means I hold a better chance at hitting a bigger return and leaving. Granny on the other hand is opening herself up for the expected loss factor.

    The longer you are gambling the faster the odds will catch up with the house. I'm sure most of us have had plenty of stories that start with "Well, I was up such and such but went on tilt".

    So, she holds the higher near actual expected loss for the casino. Factor in that they want you on property. More time in their building equal more chances you are eating, drinking, shopping or whatever with them. So a player that is willing to hang around 5 times as long is a "better" player for them.

    And I will assume that two players, both playing $5.00 a spin and one playing faster and one shooting the shit with their buddies will actually be rated the same. Even though they have the different TOD. I'm sure the software math makes up for this. But I cant say for sure.

    The other thing I cant figure out, and no one will tell me, is how much TOD actually plays into your rating. Might be a tiny fraction, I cant say. But most of the larger clubs have been viewing TOD for awhile.

    I'll be covering the G2E in October, I'll see if I cant get someone to put a value on it.
     
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  12. Cosmopolitan_SlotVP

    Cosmopolitan_SlotVP Cosmopolitan Rep

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    I'll save you all the hassle as it relates to Cosmopolitan ... time on device/duration you play does not factor into any of our decision making process (related to slots).


    -KS
     
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  13. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    I just can't get past the thing that people can play at different rates. I understand that the more spins, the closer the house should get to absolute theo. But time isn't a guarantee of spins, so if TOD is a bolted-on factor in your rating, that piece of it can be gamed. Then again, the price of gaming it (sitting there doing one spin a minute instead of six) is probably so soul-crushing that nobody would do it.

    Get someone drunk at G2E and find out what the fuck is going on, lol.
     
  14. VegasFirstTimer

    VegasFirstTimer High-Roller

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    I like cosmo but I hear that table games don't get anything there. Is it true? Surely $300 a hand baccarat must get some comps?
     
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  15. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    Table play will generate comps and offers. You don't get any cash-equivalent comps like Express Comps, and you don't get tier points, although they will bump your tier if you play enough.

    I don't know the exact % theo they give for bacc or any other table game, and I've never had them write out a voucher or anything like that, but table players get offers and if you did a walk-through and played enough, I'm sure they'd take care of you by covering a dinner or giving you a room for the night, etc.
     
  16. Guy_

    Guy_ VIP Whale

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    I have been told by two different hosts at CET (one in Vegas and one locally) that time gambling matters.. but once you pass 4 hours its all the same.
    So if you are in there and do $5000 coin in in 1 hours you will be looked at less favorably then someone who does it in 4 hours..
    But if you do $5000 in 4 hours or in 10 hours.. it does not matter.

    Both hosts gave the same speech of "The casino just wants a chance to win it back before you run"
     
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  17. Cosmopolitan_SlotVP

    Cosmopolitan_SlotVP Cosmopolitan Rep

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    Regarding table comps at Cosmopolitan... yes you most certainly earn comps, you simply don't earn points. A 300 per hand bacc player is going to generate plenty of nice comps.

    Regarding time played, especially for tables, it's just how hosts are taught to easily communicate comp earning for customers.
    We certainly don't love table games players that come in and try to "quick hit" us. So the industry standard is "we would like to see 4 hours of play per day @ 100 avg bet" to get a room comp or some variation of that phrase.
    Obviously the house advantage varies wildly based on what you play, but even most hosts can't really articulate the mathematical differences. Generating table games theo (especially in BJ) is tough, but it's just math. You play, you earn $xxx in theo, and the host/casino will give back a percentage of that theo in comps.

    At the extreme high end of table games play, there are a lot of incentives that can be earned after playing a predetermined set number of hours. So that is where length of time played really becomes an important factor.

    -KS
     
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  18. Grid

    Grid Well-Known Member

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    I'll beat it out of someone! I think you are hung up on absolute time. 1 hour of slow play VS 1 hour of fast play. Same denom, same bet level, just one playing faster. I agree this is not a metric.

    Where I'm saying TOD is not that literal. I'm saying when a casino refers to TOD they are thinking spins and averages. IE how long will someone sit there and lose (eventually).

    TOD (the way I understand it) is how long you are willing to sit on that damn machine and play. And therefor, two players playing a penny machine, one grinding out $1.00 a spin for an hour and one max betting $5.00 a spin for 20 minutes. The casino would rather have the longer sitting playing. They should be the ones generating more spins and eating the shit odds that catch up with that. Where as the 5 buck Chuck a spin player could hit big enough to walk away and not recycle. Since they have shown they are not a recycle win player. AKA They just do not hang around long enough.

    Both their coin in is the same. Both play the same denom. Both might play the same game. But one is not willing to hang around as much.

    So I think we agree? It is not so much absolute time doing the same. But rather bet level and one playing opening them self up to the house odds by spending more time on device. Even though both players ADT are the same. The sucker that sits longer, by playing the same game in the same denom but for a smaller bet to stretch their TOD, is the better player for the house. And of the 2 is the player they would rather see. And maybe, even by a little, they will offer that longer sitting player more to attract them in.


    I copied and pasted the below from a gambling site. Maybe the missing metric that we are not talking about is the "type" of player that spends more time on a machine.

    “Time on Device” (TOD) is the #1 metric that casinos and slot machine manufacturers are concerned with.

    Casinos and gambling machine manufacturers have figured out that the #1 predictor of a game’s profitability is the average amount of time a gambler spends on that device. When designing new games, the slot machine manufacturers (IGT, Bally, WMS, and others) focus on features that will increase this number.

    One way to look at a game with a high “Time on Device” is how well it hooks a gambler into “the zone”. This is a state of mind where it’s just the gambler and the machine. According to some anecdotal reports, this type of thinking takes the place of concerns about winning big.

    You can think of this zone as a space where time and normal social stresses cease to have meaning.
     
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  19. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    It's a Bird vs Magic thing :D we're re not that far apart.

    You know the quote - "the longer they play, the more they lose. In the end, we get it all."

    I guess I am a little hung up on absolute time because occasionally players are getting quoted it. And I do understand that it's just an easy way for a host to give a guideline to a player.

    BUT, I also know what a generally accepted average number of spins per hour is for a reel machine, for example, and if I multiply that, times hours quoted, times average bet, it's often (and not trivially) high, some places worse than others. That part I don't like.

    TOD as a measure of stickiness I have no problem with, it's an obvious metric for deciding which machines to keep and which to get rid of.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
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  20. boofmichael

    boofmichael Low-Roller

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    Cannot remember if I posted in this thread already but in May a host at Cosmo told me that the minimum for comps from BJ is 4 hours p/d at $50 p/h.
     
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