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Table Games A.D.'s obscure craps question corner

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by AyDee, Oct 8, 2019.

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  1. AyDee

    AyDee is getting too old for this

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    thought we could dive deep in a thread.

    Here's my question,
    I know there are ways to hedge the last point in an ALL situation (small, tall, or all, you can don't the last point and maybe lock in a win)
    Is there any way to hedge against the usual final two points, 2s and 12s?
     
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  2. VegasBJ

    VegasBJ VIP Whale

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    I guess you could hedge with a Big Red / Any Seven bet at 4-1. This is a one roll bet, so you have to keep replacing each roll. However, this can get expensive as you would have to bet enough each roll to cover the amount you want to hedge ( lock in a win). If you go another 6-8 rolls ( or more) without a 7, or your 2/12, you are losing a good chunk of the amount you are trying to win.
     
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  3. pressitagain

    pressitagain VIP Whale

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    Betting the seven is a hedge...could be costly.

    Shutting/taking down inside bets....could be costly.

    Any inside number remaining would be to lay against the remaining number.
     
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  4. MCann

    MCann VIP Whale

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    If you dont have *too* much on the ATS, you can hedge the sucker bets that are hedging your ATS with an iron cross in sufficient amount to just replace your sucker bets. But of course, then you need to hedge your iron cross...
     
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  5. VegasBJ

    VegasBJ VIP Whale

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    I would assume that some of the #'s with the iron cross are already covered via place bets / come bets..................
     
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  6. topcard

    topcard Celebrating 40 Years of Vegas Trips in 2020!

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    I suppose you could Martingale a come-bet, starting with twice the amount you have wagered on the ATS. 2 of the 3 "crap" rolls would be your 2 & 12, so who knows? Those multiple come-bets could actually make you more money while you wait for the 2 & 12 to show up!

    I wouldn't recommend it, but you could do it. ;)
    :beer:
     
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  7. AyDee

    AyDee is getting too old for this

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    While we think about that,
    I usually just panic and two way the snake eyes or boxcars so it would be even sweeter if it hits.

    Can anyone simply explain player control tips?
    I think I finally have a grip on it, but it's a fun extra layer of complexity some of you might want to know about.

    I thought I had a grip on it, but at one point didn't realize or forgot that dealers got paid on them, it was mostly just the portion of the bet that would normally go down on two ways that would stay up.
    This one drunken trip at GG, I kept double tipping the dealers, thinking I was responsible for paying them out.
    After a couple rounds of intense gratitude and confused looks, later that night my dealer buddy Kev at MSS told me what was really happening,
    felt kind of stupid but hey, a hot roll is a hot roll, win, win!

    After that, I backed off doing it,
    because pressing both bets took extra mental energy, but my other favorite dealer had told me dealers prefer it, because their action continues..
    Also, I have had dealers that can't even handle the concept, and it ends up being a rhythm breaking distraction.

    tl/dr: stick to the two ways, it's easier.
     
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  8. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    :clap: :clap: :clap: That's a special zone for sure.
     
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  9. AyDee

    AyDee is getting too old for this

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    I need to give this one some thought.. So a dollar on a small or tall would give 30, on a roll like this I would probably have several numbers covered, so the bet would have to be pretty large...

    then I googled, and found this
    The odds of actually rolling a 7 are 6 in 36 or 5:1. The house pays out 4:1 on a winning bet, which brings up an outrageous house edge of 16.67%. This is the absolute worst bet you can make in craps. This is actually one of the worst bets a player can make in any casino game at the casino. It is also the most profitable bet for the casino since a large house edge means that players will lose more money and quickly. Note that this rule depends on what casino you play at.

    But I still like it as a hedge for all the hards working on the come out.
     
  10. Eternity

    Eternity Tourist

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    Why would you want to hedge on any bet in craps...? Those bets already have high house edges (everything in the center sucks :confused:) - if you're that close to winning there's no point in hedging cause if you're chasing the ATS, you've probably already spent way more than what would have been paid out if all or part of it hit and now you're paying "insurance" to win even less...

    Everyone has different betting strategies and what not but hedge bets make bad bets even worse. If you're playing short term only and once in a long while then it doesn't make much of a difference but if you're a gambling for the long run and you repeat bad/hedge bets over and over again... you're skewing your variance toward losses much higher than it should be.
     
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  11. AyDee

    AyDee is getting too old for this

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    :rolleyes:o_OI'll agree that I don't usually bet enough on those all bets to make it work out, (I kind of hate them actually), but I am reasonably sure there are certain bet levels where putting an appropriately sized don't bet on the single remaining point number ensures a higher expected positive outcome.. (haven't done it, thinking about calculating it on the fly makes my head hurt)

    Not sure whet you meant already spent way more because the assumption in this case is it is a long roll and you have been raking it in on all the points that have been hitting, further making a hedge possibly "on the house".

    I agree, in this instance I ask about of needing to make a recurring hedge on say a 2 or 12, this would be a continous bleeding out I am not willing to take.

    Oh, and the Big Red hedge on all the hard ways working coming out means they stay up regardless. I don't know if you've put enough hours in to get bored with pass, come, and odds, (I know that's lowest HA) but you should see me drunk with a stack of ones making hop bets... It's action. you pay for it. I also play BJ sucker bets, and tip more than I should. I have a little bit more fun my way. I'm trying to parlay a hard three times one day. I'm sure it's highly unlikely.

    Do whatever floats your boat.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2019
  12. Ken D

    Ken D Low-Roller

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    If you think 16.67% house edge is bad, then look at the ATS house edge based on the payouts you'll find on the strip in Vegas.

    Per Wizard of Odds:
    Small/Tall is 18.3% when pays 30 to 1.
    All is 20.61% when pays 150 to 1.

    This is why I will very rarely play it (and only when min. is $1), though it gets tempting at times when it is hitting. I just remind myself the number of sessions I've played where they never hit.
     
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  13. flyguyfl

    flyguyfl VIP Whale

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    I find the Craps conservations the most informative and entertaining gambling talk on the board. So Five Claps to all.:clap:
     
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  14. Calder

    Calder High-Roller

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    I assume you always have the 4, 6, 8 & 10 covered [as a hedge] during your roll -- otherwise why hedge the hardways only on the comeout? If you're worried about them, turn them off.

    Except for free odds, every bet carries a house edge, so hedging just adds additional cost while limiting your upside. But it's craps. Part of the fun for me is watching how everyone else bets.

    While I can see perhaps hedging for the last number on an ATS, hedging always struck me as people trying to not win too much.
     
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  15. AyDee

    AyDee is getting too old for this

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    because losing the four bucks on comeout sucks.
    even if it is covered on the pass line.

    but yeah, I suppose in the end hedging is like taking insurance in BJ,
    not exactly gambling.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019
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  16. EastCoastVegasFan!

    EastCoastVegasFan! VIP Whale

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    I know people that hedge to get their ADT/play bumped way up. It's the equivalent of "spinning your wheels" at the craps table. They can play for hours and lose the absolute minimum while racking up a higher ADT (for more chips being on the table). Seems boring to me, but I've seen folks do it.
     
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  17. LV_Bound

    LV_Bound VIP Whale

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    Ha, I has a similar thought last time in Vegas.
    Needed the 11 to complete the ALL and was thinking how the hell do I hedge this. :p
     
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  18. LV_Bound

    LV_Bound VIP Whale

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    Normally if you toss out $10 for the hard six and say "$5 two way hard six", when the hard six hits, the dealers get paid and placed in the tip box AND the initial $5 bet is also taken down and placed in the tip box.

    Here is an example from Excalibur which was extremely fun.
    Tossed out $10 for the hard six and say "$5 two way hard six, piggy back."
    I learned from one of my posts here you can say "Player Control", "I control" or "piggyback". The term piggyback seems more friendly.
    It was just me and the dealers. When the hard 6 hit, I asked the stick guy "What should we do?"
    He replies, "Lets press one unit and take the rest."

    Basically you get to control what happens with their winnings as what you do with your winning is what they must do with their winnings.
    If you parlay the entire winning then so do they.

    Since I play at an empty table I get the dealers involved (usually the stickman) and it really makes the game more exciting overall.

    On the come out roll I put $6 on the CE ($3 2way piggyback) and when it hits and I ask "What should we do?" The usual reply is to parlay!!!!
    The craps dealers can really get into a game.
     
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  19. AyDee

    AyDee is getting too old for this

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    yeah that one trip I learned about it, I had tons of fun piggybacking and pressing them up, and parlayed a few.
    until I hit a table where the dealers got entirely befuddled and it really slowed the game down

    (the nearby dealer had to keep correcting the center layout)

    I think it was piggybacking pass with odds that got me confused.

    Probably a lot easier, and great way to get dealers involved without a full table.

    I think I had this situation too, instead of the hedge, I kept putting various two way yos going up for a hot minute, don't think we made it. :mad:
    hedge or non hedge though, the roll continuing pays for them..
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019
  20. Nittany1

    Nittany1 VIP Whale

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    i tip the dealers one of two ways:
    Pass line bet with odds (usually double to start).if I’m hitting place bets I’ll add to their odds before the point comes in.
    Or
    Piggyback hardways.
    So I throw out a piggyback hard 10 $50 and $5
    If it hits,I get $350 and they get $35.Bet stays up and I press it both ways to $100 and $10 for the dealers.
    In terms of hedging,I turn my hardways off coming out so no need to hedge.
    Hedging the ATS? It is already a money drain.Hedging will make it worse.
    I stopped playing the bonus a couple years ago when they dropped the pay tables.
    The only possible hedge would be big red and that could turn into an ongoing donation.to the table.
     
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