Table Games Shufflemaster card shufflers - honest game???

I was at Harrahs in AC playing Ultimate Texas hold'em one morning when the red light came on to tell the dealer something is amiss in the shuffle. I asked the dealer and he said the 8 of clubs isn't accounted for. I asked him how does the shuffler know exactly which card is missing or unaccounted for? He said it keeps track of every card and every position the cards are in. He goes "watch this" as he hits a series of buttons and low and behold the shuffler spits the deck out into the tray, he picks up the deck and like it was just unwrapped from a box all the cards are in perfect order from low to high all suits in order. In a matter of seconds the shuffle machine puts the cards in a predetermined order. The 8 of clubs was accounted for and the game continued.

It made me think that those shufflers can be put in any order the programmer of the device wants. Who's to say when you play let it ride or any game and the dealer presses 5 players before the shuffle, that the house has more control of the outcome than you or I might think. It made me very uncomfortable that we may not be playing a random game of chance.

Now when I'm in Vegas I try to find games that are hand shuffled and hand dealt. They are becoming rarer and rarer.

 

The reason it can do this is because the Shufflemaster machines do a true random shuffle of the cards using an RNG. Of course it would be technically possible to have the house control the outcome, but that's also the case with slot machines, video poker, and really anything else that's electronic. These machines are tested and monitored, and SHFL is a billion-dollar, publicly-traded company that's about to close a sale to Bally. Between their shuffler business (which has more or less a monopoly on the market) and their IP (they own Let It Ride, Casino War, Three Card Poker, Blackjack Switch, etc.), it'd be absolutely insane to suggest that they'd risk their credibility by putting in a way for the house to cheat. I'd go as far as to say that you're safer with a Shufflemaster machine than with a manual shuffle, since there's no way to pull any sleight-of-hand nonsense on it.

 

That's exactly why I sit out a hand or two so as to screw around with sequence. Spy vs. Spy.

 

I would think the Casino's would love to know they can have any edge they want, like dialing a Slot from 95% down to 91%. You have way too much trust in a place that's in the business of taking your money with millions and millions of dollars involved.

 

My point is, haven't you ever seen anyone do a card trick? Watched a magician appear to "shuffle" a deck yet still be able to pull exactly the card they wanted off the top? If a casino wanted to cheat, I'd be much more worried about being cold-decked by a dealer. The shuffle machines, by contrast, are regulated just like slot machines, and if evidence of chicanery ever got out, it'd be a death blow not only to the casino, but to SHFL/Bally. Bally pulled in about a billion dollars last year, I wouldn't think they'd risk their global business (I doubt Singapore would let a company that's now known for facilitating the cheating of customers into the country) just to let a client increase the house edge by a few percent. Not to mention, that'd require a total breakdown of the gaming enforcement process, given that both the casinos and the manufacturers need to be licensed and are heavily regulated.

 

We'll agree to disagree. I have far less trust when it comes to the amounts of money involved.

 

The company as a whole certainly wouldn't risk it but that doesn't mean an individual employee(s) wouldn't. Look what Ron Harris did and he was a member of the GCB. I realize tampering with the software/firmware and getting away with it is the longest of long shots. But stranger things have happened.

The Harris story is very interesting, his Wiki page really doesn't explain how he rigged slots (brilliant) but there have been a couple of TV shows where it's all laid out, and they include interviews with him. He was caught rigging Keno machines, if he had stuck to his slot scam he may never have been caught.

 

A casino up north from me has had that for their UTHe game for about 3 years now. They have something similar for 3 Card, I hate it. I absolutely HATE it. You can tell me 1000Xs that its still random, and I will say every time, I don't believe it! The funny thing, I have family who works for Shuffle Master, yet, I still don't trust it.
I like cards being shuffled and dealt.

 

Hmm... so the thinking is that a billion dollar company and a multi-billion dollar company are conspiring together and risking millions in fines, their reputations, their gaming licenses and possibly everything they own so that they can rob you of maybe $5 once or twice and hour?

 

Those very same mega corps that change % on a slot by 1% or change VP 9/6 to 9/5? They would never tweak anything so little, that could amount to so much over so long? I just must be paranoid.

 

Those are not examples of breaking the law. No casino would lose their license and billions of dollars by doing those things. Cheating, on the other hand, could cost them billions and is highly unlikely.

 

The ability to sort cards is far different than the ability to still be random but give the house an additional 1% edge.

Also for this to happen, I feel every level would have to be in on it. The game maker, the casino, and the gaming boards. While I may have too much faith in these corporations, I feel you have too much faith in their ability to keep a secret.


Show me proof that they have the ability to call up any card at random, and I will change my mind. Just showing me that the machine can sort them isn't enough proof to me.

Not sure how these machines work, but it is very possible that on every shuffle the machine sorts them to verify everything is there and then does the shuffle. To me this would seem like a good process for the machine to work with.

Sorting the card may have also been a specific request from casinos. Whenever cards are changed, they are saved to be verified. To do this, they sort them. If the machine sorts them for the casino, that is less work the casino has to do.

 

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6889979.html

 

If the machine can sort them it means it can recognize any card and place it at any spot. I'm a systems analyst and believe me, they can make the % a variable anytime they want, and the machine's predetermine wins, win pay percent, overall payments, etc in a nano second before they finalize a sequence. Not only that, it can be done millions times in a second. To think that the technology isn't there is naive.

I'm not saying they do it, all I'm saying is it most definitely can be done. And why would it be any less legal than changing a slot's pay table? It's their establishment, their game, their rules, their odds. You accept all that by placing a bet.

 

There are two different machines. The CSM and the auto-shufflers. I posted a link to the patent and description of how the CSM works in another thread once: https://www.vegasmessageboard.com/forums/showpost.php?p=850321&postcount=10

If you search I'm sure you can find the same for the auto-shuffler along with descriptions of their programming. At least it would remove some of the mystery.

As numeno said, if this were possible it would have to be known to many more people than just in the casino. The way the regulators check all of these electronic gaming machines is by comparing their firmware to the original firmware approved by the regulators.

Since there isn't any legitimate reason for the software to allow the cards to be sorted in any particular order I really doubt that feature would be allowed to exist in the software even if it were blocked. Sorting the decks in order is a different story, there is a legitimate reason for it, so a human can easily check if there are any missing cards.

I'll never say never. There are scores of bigger companies that have done far sleazier things throughout history. But I really doubt it in this case for multiple reasons, many of which others have already written about.

 

If they could do this...why would they ever allow big wins?

 

I know they could do what you are suggesting, I'm not debating that. I just think you are underestimating the effort involved in this shuffler knowing exactly which cards to play at a specific time.

Which would you choose?

1) Pay Shufflemaster $1million for the effort to write all this unique firmware.

2) Go pay $1000 to buy new felt for the tables and alter one of the payouts.


To change a VP payout, you simply have to pay less, nothing changes in the card sorting.

To change a slot payout, you simply remove higher paying symbols and replace them with lower paying symbols.

To change the return on BJ, simply reduce the payout of blackjacks



It is actually illegal to use firmware not approved by gaming. Changing a slot from 96 to 95 is simply switching from 1 approved firmware to another. The casino simply needs to keep track of which firmware is being used at which times.

VP in Nevada is required to have cards be random. I do not know if the same requirement is on shufflers or not. If the same law applies, this would be another law the casino is breaking.

 

What you guys are missing in the conspiracy theory is that the house doesn't know how many players are going to be at the table, the deck could be perfectly set up to destroy the player and whoops, here comes another player(or someone playing two hands).

 

At the Let It Ride tables I have played, the shuffler just spits out 3 card packs until either the table limit of hands is dealt or the dealer hits the button on the machine to tell it to deal the remaining cards. The only way I see this conspiracy theory as possible is if the machine knows what hand goes to the dealer and unless the table is full the machine doesn't know what cards the dealer gets until after the fact.

 

In UTH and sometimes PG the dealer has to tell the computer how many players there are and where they are sitting...also, some of the side bets activate a force sensor which illuminated the sidebet light (then the dealer pulls the chips but the light stays on)