Table Games Well, I just learned a good lesson at the craps table...

Hey all, I am going to vegas end of august and staying at Aria since they keep sending me 3 free nights and slot play, free buffets etc (also staying there because I loved this place on my last trip). This is only my second trip. I am normally a slot player with some blackjack thrown in. I know slots are horrible odds but I have a few favorites that I can't resist.

I have played craps a few times years ago but I really don't know much about the game and would really like to learn before going again. I will pick up this book mentioned in this thread but will it help a complete newb? I know the absolute basics of the game, but definitely not enough to confidently go up and start playing. I will be going with a 5-6k bank roll for my 4 night stay. Any other website or book that is recommended for someone like me or will this one book be enough?

thanks all

 

Most casinos give Craps lessons around 10:00 or 11:00am.
If Aria doesn't provide one then definitely check NYNY and Excalibur as they do.

 

I don't think that book will help you understand the game. It does give some interesting strategies, and he does write with humor. I especially like how doesn't care how some one rolls the dice, particularly rubbing them against...(read the book.) I would recommend some sites to give basic "lessons" but hesitate as I don't recall the rules of posting on this site (too lazy to look it up right now.) PM me, and if I find the rules, I will edit to post the links.

 

Personally I would avoid The Dice Doctor book. Sam Grafstein is a "voodoo author." Craps is not a game to "beat." No betting scheme or system can overcome the house edge.

Hot/cold shooters only exist in hindsight. The next roll is random, doesn't matter what happened previously.

It's akin to those that believe in hot or cold blackjack dealers, and the "flow of the cards" nonsense.

If you want sound advice, I'd go here:

http://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/

Have a great trip.

 

That would be the site I was thinking of, as well as http://wizardofvegas.com as that can give a lot of discussion into the game of craps, as well as others.

You are correct that the game can't be beat. I like how Sam writes, though. It's funny stuff. His insight, sure, just another guy giving "methods of play."

 

thanks all for the information, will check out those links!

 

Too many of you guys have said this, and simply....it's wrong.


What do you guys do when you "press"? Just go up, up, up.....and never take any of the profit? You know a 7 is eventually coming, so why would you leave most of your money in play? You take money on each roll, and invest some, too.


I put money in the rack every roll, and also increase my wager. It's not rocket science, boys.

 

So pressing doesn't mean more risk? While some view it as house money when you press, I view pressed money as money I could have in my rack which I could wager on subsequent rolls. As such, you are in fact increasing your bet size and taking more risk. Bigger bets mean bigger swings, which means more volatility.

And by the way, when I press, I usually collect first then press the next hit.

 

No Rush, you're wrong. Volatility is measured in dollars. By increasing your wager you are, by definition, increasing your volatility.

That doesn't mean it's right or wrong to do it though.

Also you're not "investing" when you play a game where you know you have an expected loss. It's a bet on a game stacked against you. It's important to remember when you try to rationalize that betting more has any other logic behind it other than maybe being more fun and hoping to catch a wave.

 

I would say that pressing does not change the volatility, which is a mathematical measure based on the percentages of the game.

I would say that it increases your risk of ruin for your particular bankroll though - if you stay at the pressed levels.

If you press as part of a progression, and then start at the base level after a seven out, its okay.


To the person asking about whether the Dice Doctor book would teach craps - agree that this isn't the book to learn the game basics with.

I'd read the pinned craps thread on this board, and read one other book that explains craps. Sorry, I don't have one to recommend.

And - I would pick up a craps 'basic strategy' card at the hotel gift shop - you can get wallet cards for two or three bucks that cover all the bets and the odds etc. Good investment. Good for a refresher for the beginner just before they hit the table.

 

You're talking about volatility of the game. What Phatphoeater is talking about and is more important for an individual is your realized volatility. The volatility of the game itself has nothing to do with bet size, but that only matters if you have an unlimited bankroll.

Same as you putting money into a stock with 80% volatility. The stock's volatility won't change based on how much you invest, but the volatility of your own portfolio will change dramatically based on how much you invest.

By definition, your volatility increases as you increase your bets. Which is fine if that's what you're after. But it doesn't make it a smarter system as Rush suggests.

 

Thanks to all the posters that have bought, read, and vouched for “The Dice Doctor.” I appreciate the affirmations.

Eldookae:

“I have played craps a few times years ago but I really don't know much about the game and would really like to learn before going again. I will pick up this book mentioned in this thread but will it help a complete newb? “

The Dice Doctor is definitely for experienced crapshooters that understand the basics and some of the intricacies of the game. He clearly states that it’s not for beginners.

It would be good for anyone new to the game to establish good habits as soon as possible, so IMHO, it’s ALWAYS recommended. You’ll probably find that, after some experience, upon re-reading the text you’ll say to yourself, “So, THAT’S what they were doing? I really understand, now”

As to those who are of the “Pressing just reduces the chance of a winning session while increasing the amount you make from winning sessions. But it does so at the cost of increased theoretical losses; in other words, you'll lose more from missing those small wins than you gain from blowing out the big wins” school of thought. You certainly haven’t read this book and have little or no understanding of what Sam calls, “sensible, progressive betting” – the foundation for all of his strategies.

In short, Sam, suggests that, after properly sizing your initial bet in accordance with your total gambling bankroll that you increase every bet by approximately 50%. After a loss, you revert back to your initial smaller bet size.

What this means is, if you follow his betting methods (and he has one for EVERY type of bettor), after your second win you will have made a profit on that shooter and your profits increase after every win.

As for Keyser Soze, who wrote, “Personally I would avoid The Dice Doctor book. Sam Grafstein is a "voodoo author." Craps is not a game to "beat." No betting scheme or system can overcome the house edge.”

Sam never claims that craps can be beat. He writes early, often and always in capital letters that, “THERE NEVER HAS BEEN...THERE ISN’T NOW…THERE NEVER WILL BE…A SYSTEM THAT CAN OVERCOME THE HOUSE EDGE AGAINST THE CRAPSHOOTER.”

I certainly haven’t read an author who is more realistic as to the player’s chance against the house. If you read the book you’ll find that he’s more than blunt as to the chances of those who make proposition bets. (He calls them IDIOT BETTORS. Granted, he does have methods for them to make the most of their lame play.)

He’s the only author I’ve ever read with a different take on the Come bet. (He calls it “second least worst bet on the crap table.”)

He also makes the bracing statement that “in one form or another, the 6 and 8 have buried (BROKE) more crapshooters that ALL THE OTHER BETS ON THE CRAP TABLE COMBINED!!” Hardly the stuff of a “voodoo” writer unfamiliar with the mathematics of the game.

I will also add that I’ve never read an author who has put more thought into the “don’t” side of the game, either. He has the only advice of its kind I’ve ever seen in print as to how be a successful “don’t” better, along with six (6) strategies for the dark side player.

“Voodoo?” Well, sign me up as a Dice Witch Doctor patient!

 

I wonder what you think of his strategy about multiple 7/11 wins on the come out roll? (paraphrasing here, dont have the book with me) I believe he says if a shooter rolls two winners on the come out roll in a row to parlay them and then not take any odds once they do establish a point, as you would already effectively be winning 2 to 1 if they make the point.

I think its interesting, but even if I had $40 on the pass line, I think I would still throw some odds down (maybe not full 5x, but something at least).

 

I agree that increasing bet size with a given bankroll increases your risk of ruin, but it also makes bigger wins possible. I think of this as bigger amplitudes of winning and losing. The example somone gave earlier in the thread of 2 bettors with same bankrolls. One never presses and the other presses hard. Big pressor will either flame out quicker or hit bigger wins.

Maybe I incorrectly labeled this volatility, and is better thought of as swinginess. Volatility probably refers to frequency of expected wins vs losses over large sample sizes assuming similar house edge.

 

So, how do you play the market? Do you put your initial investment in, and any time it shows a profit, you take it down to the initial investment?


My "craps" portfolio can NEVER go down dramatically on a shooter. It can only go up. I risk $24 on a shooter. I might lose every penny of it before I recoup a cent, but $24 is all I will lose on that shooter. I have a stop/loss in place.

On the other hand, I can win HUNDREDS on this shooter, and often do. It is certainly no promise of fortune, and is a slow grind most of the time, but I can get hours of play at most tables for no major risk. In 30 years of playing, I have yet to stand at a table where player after player has set a number, and sevened out.

Everyone has to play their own way, and this is mine.

I hope everyone can cream the house!!!

 

The underpinnings of what you're saying here is exactly the same as those used by the snakeoil salesmen who try to sell roulette, craps, or any other gambling strategy.

You stand to lose exactly 100% of what you bet, just like everyone else at the table. It's fine that you have a stop loss but it makes no difference whether that is a stop loss per shooter, per session, or per trip, etc. unless you believe that you'll come across a "skilled" shooter - which for your argument to make sense is what you would have to believe. Its nonsense. Its no different than a blackjack player saying he only presses his wins hoping for a streak so he's not risking more than his initial bet. It makes no sense, you're risking whatever you put on the felt. When you win a bet, that money is yours until you lose it. You ARE risking your own money. In craps its even easier, if you're a passline bettor as far as a stop loss per shooter goes its already built into the game - the shooter passes the dice when he loses.

 

Let's not equate craps to an investment. Apples and oranges. With an investment, you should keep it if you think it's still going to make money and ditch it if you think it isn't. Craps, on the other hand, is completely random. You're guessing 100% (as opposed to investing, where you're guessing 90% )

 

It's obvious you'd rather argue than read. I'm sorry about that. Nothing you've said even touches on where I was going.

Hopefully you have a good trip this weekend.

 

Not trying to argue, sorry if it came out the way. For what it's worth I do like to press my bets the way you do as well. It's just more fun for me.

Thanks for the well wishes. Though I'm reading Addiction By Design right now which is not a good book to read before heading to Vegas for a gambling jaunt!

 

In reply to the person who is just learning to play, I recommend looking up videos on Youtube. I did this before I went to Vegas and I learned enough to be really comfortable and confident at the craps tables. I played $5 craps and won about $250 in an hour on my first go.

So anyway - youtube is a good resource.