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Slot machine payback percentages… would you like to know?

Discussion in 'Misc. Vegas Chat' started by JRRestoule, Jan 19, 2022.

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  1. vegasdev

    vegasdev VIP Whale

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    I certainly wouldn't mind if the information was posted.
     
  2. vegaskid74

    vegaskid74 VIP Whale

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    Absolutely correct. If you're playing negative expectation games, it doesn't really matter whether the machine has a 1%, 5%, 10%, or 20% advantage over you. You're going to lose all of your money eventually, the only difference is how long it's going to take. Who knows, some people might appreciate getting it over with quicker anyway, lol.

    Many in this thread have expressed shock and outrage that players would be willing to sit at a machine that has a 10% house advantage when a machine with a 5% house advantage is right next to it. Walk through the table games area and look at the crowded tables of 6:5 blackjack sitting right next to empty tables of 3:2 blackjack and see if you're still confused. Folks, most people just don't care that much. They're there for a good time, and when the money runs out they're done. It's no more complicated than that.
     
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  3. 44inarow

    44inarow VIP Whale

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    Agreed. The only time I even give it a second thought is when there are identical games with different payouts. Something like $50 6:5 vs. $50 3:2 blackjack, or the Aristocrat bartops that have 6/5 JoB sitting next to the IGT ones with 8/5 JoB.
     
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  4. 44inarow

    44inarow VIP Whale

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    I wouldn't go that far -- to use my regular menu item analogy, if two things are the menu but one is $8 and the other is $5, I don't think it's fair to say that the price difference doesn't matter because the restaurant is turning a profit either way. But it doesn't mean you should drive all the way out to Poker Palace just to get a slight extra edge.
     
  5. 44inarow

    44inarow VIP Whale

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    The UK also has a very, very different view of what constitutes "responsible gaming" and the casino's role in that. Source-of-wealth inquiry, for example, goes beyond just the usual KYC/AML efforts made in the U.S. and extends to evaluating whether you can really afford to be gambling in the first place. I have a feeling many around here wouldn't like that!
     
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  6. mjames1229

    mjames1229 # of visits includes only trips w/ hotel stays

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    Only 20s? Oh my... my dream is to only play in $20 bill eaters.

    You can always tell the $100 bill eaters... they have pictures of buffalo or the word "link" on the display.
     
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  7. DaiLun

    DaiLun R.C., L.C., and A.A.N.G.

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    IMHO, the problem with posting that information is that it is subject to misinterpretation.

    I can imagine the number of people playing on a machine which is posted being a 90% payback machine saying "I played $500 in this machine and won only $100, I think that's false advertising." Then the casino would have to go through the long, tedious explanation of what the payback percentage means, and what life of the machine means.

    This is like an "uneducated" acquaintance asking me (rather, stating with a question mark) "The machines go a certain number of pulls with no payout and then there HAS to be a payout, right?"
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2022
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  8. Joeman

    Joeman Low-Roller

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    This thread reminds me of my first trip to Harrah's New Orleans in the early 2000's. There was a bank of slots with a "98% Return" sign. Right next to this bank was an ATM that charged a $2.50 fee when I tried to withdraw $100.

    I thought, "What kind of place is this where the slot machines pay better than the ATM???"
     
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  9. dmr

    dmr Registered Abuser

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    One machine that I would REALLY like to know the hold and the odds on is the Gems machine!
     
  10. Jejas

    Jejas VIP Whale

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    My 2 cents:
    Those numbers (theoretical slot returns) are proprietary information,
    but they are not real top secrets. Many people working in the casino industry know the numbers.
    (any slot tech in a casino can see the setting of a machine).
    Think about how many people working in all casinos in the US.
    I am sure they can tell (in private) their best friends, family members etc if they want to.
    So you can imagine how many people know those.
    And I am sure some people on VMB do know those numbers.

    Does the knowledge help them in gambling? Not really, not much, IMHO.
     
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  11. woodsie

    woodsie VIP Whale

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    What does them being games of chance have to do with them not being able to be transparent about theoretical payback percentages? I'm just not following.
     
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  12. woodsie

    woodsie VIP Whale

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    It matters because lower house edge means the good times don't cost as much or at the very least they last longer.

    I'll take better rules all day every day if all other things are equal. I get that I'm here to spend money but stretching a gambling buck further never hurt anyone.
     
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  13. vegaskid74

    vegaskid74 VIP Whale

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    Sure, like I said, the better the odds, the longer it'll take for you to lose everything. But eventually, you'll still lose everything, and most players don't seem to care how long the money lasts as evidenced by the prevalence of 6:5 BJ, 000 roulette, etc.
     
  14. woodsie

    woodsie VIP Whale

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    Oh, I understand that most players don't care, I'm just saying that I care.

    I disagree with the "you'll still lose everything" notion though. My betting behavior is fairly fixed (typical bet size, hours per day) and my number of trips per year has nothing to do with my ability to afford it. I'm one or two trips to Vegas per year based on when I can make the time and that's it.

    I understand your observation would be accurate for a degenerate gambler that goes until he's broke no matter what but I'm not a degenerate gambler. Lower house edge means I will spend less per year on gambling than I would at a higher house edge period.
     
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  15. nostresshere

    nostresshere Mr. Anti Debit Card

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    Because they do not want to and in the end, the customers in most cases would not be happy.

    Imagine walking into a casino and every machine had a payback number posted.

    You see some machines you would like to play and they say 88% but some you do not want to play that show 92%. Your desire messes with your common sense and you are torn about what to do.
     
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  16. vegaskid74

    vegaskid74 VIP Whale

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    I'm not saying you're bound to lose every penny you have to your name if you're playing negative expectation games. Obviously your bankroll is replenishable and you gamble responsibly. But given any set amount of money, it's a mathematical certainty that you'll eventually lose all of the money if you're playing negative expectation games and you don't add money to the bankroll. The process will obviously happen more quickly if you play games with higher house edges, but you'll still lose every penny eventually even if the game only has a house edge of 0.00000001%.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2022
  17. woodsie

    woodsie VIP Whale

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    I understand your point and it is indeed factually correct. I just don't see how it serves as a justification for why house edge doesn't matter.

    Sure if you run a gambling simulation indefinitely on a fixed bankroll, it'll eventually run out but that's not a real world condition. Most gambling trips are not indefinite.

    If you have 7 days to gamble, you have 7 days to gamble. A lower house edge will on average make those 7 days cost less all other things equal and is that not a desirable outcome?

    ETA: I'm probably being pedantic so feel free to disregard. I understand your point, I understand my point. It's just a different way of looking at things.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2022
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  18. woodsie

    woodsie VIP Whale

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    I understand why they do not want to. That's pretty obvious.

    He said in his post that they are not able to. I was wondering if there was a reason they are not able to. I didn't realize it was something they can't do which is why I asked. Also curious as to how them being games of chance had anything to do with it.
     
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  19. vegaskid74

    vegaskid74 VIP Whale

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    Yeah, I agree with everything you're saying. My only point was that obviously the average Vegas customer doesn't care anymore as evidenced by the games they're willing to play.
     
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  20. woodsie

    woodsie VIP Whale

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    Totally agree. 6:5 and 000 exist because people play it.
     
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