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Coin in to not “underplay” a comp

Discussion in 'Comps' started by Marlin3, Jan 27, 2021.

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  1. dankyone

    dankyone VIP Whale

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    10 play quarter UX is $25 a spin. For 12 hours a day, that is some pretty strong play :)
     
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  2. Flowers

    Flowers VIP Whale

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    Agree. LOL. I didn't always play that game at that amount the whole time. Half might have been Lightning Link for many hours at $5, $7.50 or $12.50 a spin. I know that's strong play as well, but it's not relative -- comparing hourly play -- to folks who play $10 or $25+ slot machines for a few hours. But, his point is my much longer play at a high but relatively lower (in comparison to higher rollers) average spin amount was "just as good" if not better than the HL limit play I just described, even though my guess is their bankrolls were probably much bigger than mine. The Wynn NYE party has folks like me but also serious whales who play HL only, have credit lines in the hundreds of thousands+, etc. so that's why I initially asked him some questions about why I was able to attend the same party. :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2021
  3. FABismonte

    FABismonte Tell my wife I am "about even."

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    I wonder if just playing slowly on my machine of choice will increase my comp value
     
  4. Flowers

    Flowers VIP Whale

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    Good question. Ultimately the hosts see coin in/coin out, total profit or loss, etc. and on the margins it might not matter but I play VP VERY quickly to the point that neighboring players have noted it :).

    On a lengthy play day, my play of 10 hours could be someone else's 11+ hours if they play more slowly, take more cigarette, restroom, drink and/or chat breaks at the machine than I do (likely as 95% of the time I'm playing solo). So putting aside time where I have a meal elsewhere and focusing solely on the time where I am sitting at a machine, I could see someone playing as I do but even if just 10% more slowly than me then my 10 hours is someone else's 11. Over the course of a few days, that could indeed add up in terms of the total picture and definitely when double booking as I have had a V/P host say to me that for comped offers the expectation is a minimum of 3 1/2 to 4 hours of play a day. I factor that in when I double book with V/P and typically do NOT play 7 to 8 hours at V/P over a two-night double booking but I try and put at least 4 hours and decent coin in over the course of two days.
     
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  5. DaiLun

    DaiLun R.C., L.C., and A.A.N.G.

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    IMHO, that won't work because AFAIK, hosts in the US only look at point count.

    Overseas, for example at Resorts World Genting, they look at bet size and time on the machine. However, they, like Macau, have no VP machines.
     
  6. Flowers

    Flowers VIP Whale

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    Well, my host was unequivocal with me that time matters and can matter a lot. Same at V/P. In both cases that's from my personal experience. It's not a substitute for coin in but it is indeed relevant and something hosts consider.
     
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  7. JulianC

    JulianC Amateur

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    As you have now known for a long time, your good friend Theo got you in.
     
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  8. DaiLun

    DaiLun R.C., L.C., and A.A.N.G.

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    Not to dispute what your host told you, but that's like saying that wins and losses affect comps. If I sit for 10 hours playing $1 a spin, how could that rate higher than 1 hour at $10 a spin? Doesn't make sense to me.

    I think that your host was just trying to get you to spend more time in the casino . . . . .
     
  9. Flowers

    Flowers VIP Whale

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    Those are extreme examples to make your point. I gave a less extreme example, which I think has some validity based on what two different hosts at two different properties have shared with me. Even one day's play either way may not matter but over the course of a multi-day trip on the margins it might. In fact, once my V/P host diplomatically told me of the expectations of play in terms of TIME -- she didn't even mention coin in and my level of historic play has varied widely at V/P -- I adjusted my per spin bet by lowering it, not dramatically as in your example but I definitely lowered it.
     
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  10. FABismonte

    FABismonte Tell my wife I am "about even."

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    I am sure that each casino has its own secret formula for comps. My Vegas host at CET told me exactly the following in a phone text (not using CET email) when I asked how many tier credits do I need to earn to get $____? in discretionary comps on checkout : "When we comp discretionary we don't go by tier credits, we go by hours played, theoretical and win/losses. It's the combination of these numbers." Nov. 2020 text.

    By comparison, based on my experience I am pretty sure that Binion's and Four Queens are only based on daily points average with no direct attention to theoretical -- at least for marketing comps. I never tried to apply discretionary comps there, nor do I need to given its generous auto comp accumulation.
     
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  11. DaiLun

    DaiLun R.C., L.C., and A.A.N.G.

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    Well, information about time played (hours in the casino), if applicable to me, might change the way that I assess each property. As I have related to one of my hosts when inquiring about this:

    "It is my desire to hit my daily limit as soon as I can, so I can get out and enjoy what Las Vegas has to offer"

    Of course, this may not apply to my play level.

    Just like basing backend comps on wins/losses vs. "action", that will weigh in to my continued play at a property.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2021
  12. Flowers

    Flowers VIP Whale

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    The more I think about it, factoring in time makes sense in a number of respects. Clearly, the longer you play -- especially if you win -- the more the house has an opportunity to get that money back. But, separate and apart from that, if someone is spending decent time playing at your property -- let's say 5 hours vs 1 hour -- they are also more likely to have a snack or meal there and enjoy other aspects of the property from which many -- though not all -- casinos also make money. That makes sense for Wynn, V/P, and CET (@FABisonte's experience) but maybe it's not as relevant at a place like Binion's or some of the casinos that aren't "resorts."
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2021
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  13. JulianC

    JulianC Amateur

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    My hypothesis, based on both these data points and my own conversations with a CET host on duty (spoiler alert: no calculus or slide rules needed)...
    • No matter what, they look for a minimum average of 4 hours of time on device/table per day for the trip. I will leave it to all of you to debate whether or not checkout day counts as one of the days, but my experience has been that you will not get dinged for not forcing yourself to put in a representative full day of play on the way out of town (or to the next hotel). You should, however, expect your comp value to be reduced if you do not commit enough time for play. It needs to be solid time on device/table. The time spent wandering from machine to machine looking for the one that won't eat the first $20 you put in within 3 minutes does not count. The time played does not even need to be on the same kind of game. I tend to put in more hours on tables than on machines, yet go relatively "low and slow" on both.
    • If you're playing at Caesars Palace, you're probably not getting any back end comps (after the RCs are swept out) if your trip ADT is below $500.
    • If you put in at least 4 hours of play per day and generate at least $500 theo per day, you will get 30% of theo as back end comp value. If you happen to have a winning trip, I believe that it will not reduce your comp value. Whenever win/loss is considered for comp value, it is only when you have a losing trip and when 10% of total overall loss is higher than the comp value you would have gotten if it is based on the casino's standard percentage of theo.
    I have written about the TLC properties and how they look at points for player evaluation purposes. Keep enjoying the current way it has been running.
     
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  14. Flowers

    Flowers VIP Whale

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    That's definitely been my experience at Wynn, my most recent trip being a great example, with $3k+ in spa and salon charges comped on the back end in addition to 3k+ in F&B charges being comped. No matter how "big" I play or win, it's refreshing to be at some place that 100% doesn't sweat it and rewards the play I give in both coin in and time, regardless if I win or lose. And if I lose, which is typically the case and sometimes significantly, it's been nice when a casino increases the comps provided in terms of free play, even during the same trip. Wynncore has done that and frankly The D has done that as well, and in both cases the added free play/cash was unsolicited (which underscores how much of a losing trip it was).
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2021
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  15. HeliBen

    HeliBen Low-Roller

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    Well, it matters if they care about variance. The math is simple, the longer it takes you to wager the same amount, the smaller the average bet is, the lower the variance is, i.e. the closer to EV you will end up. For the house that means the more likely you will actually lose.

    Extreme examples show this pretty clearly: the player how makes 1 bet of 100k on baccarat will lose with about 50% probability. but the player who makes 10k bets of 10 dollars each will lose much more likely and pose a much lower risk to the house of losing 100k to said player. even though both generate the same theo, variance with the small better is much lower.
     
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  16. JulianC

    JulianC Amateur

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    That is exactly why Wynn knocked it out of the park with the revamp of Red Card into Wynn Rewards when it comes to table players. The new extra enticement -- comp dollars -- gives more back to the player based on play that can be directly used for resort spend than anyone else on the Strip. Excluding tier progression, Cosmo and MGM give absolutely nothing. Venetian only gives Grazie Gifts points, but only if you are at the top three tiers and then you have to make an extra trip just to use them. Based on common estimates around here, CET gives back about 2% of theo in RCs if they are used for resort spend. Wynn gives 5% of theo for everyone, regardless of tier level.

    When you finish up that three-hour mid-morning pure drop-in blackjack session at Encore, where are you most likely to go for lunch -- Tacos El Gordo, the food court at the Fashion Show, or Wazuzu? If you are at the casino with your SO or a responsibly-sized group of friends, how does your party size change that decision and affect how much you might spend out-of-pocket?
     
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  17. Flowers

    Flowers VIP Whale

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    Interestingly, I was checking the Wynnrewards information to double check the retail locations where I could use my comp dollars. The language below is in the detailed Wynn Rewards Ts and Cs but it's also in big print on the main Wynn Rewards website in response to the Q, "How can I earn Compdollars?" There's a specific reference to length of play.


    COMPDOLLARS are earned while playing select reel slots, video poker machines, and tables games and are based on Member’s average bet, type of game played, and length of play. COMPDOLLARS may be redeemed only at restaurants, retail stores and other amenities listed on the COMPDOLLARS site at the time of redemption. List is subject to change without notice.
     
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  18. Jaydog98

    Jaydog98 Low-Roller

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    Haven’t heard anyone talk about Cosmo’s comp system and or hosts from there. Anyone know how the Cosmo’s comp system works? Do they look at time played on machines? Or do they go strictly on coin in?
     
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  19. JulianC

    JulianC Amateur

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    Standard boilerplate, just like every other casino. It simply means that the earning of COMPDOLLARS is purely theo-based. It does not mean that someone who sits at a slot machine for an elapsed period of two hours and plays at a pace of 300 spins per hour at $3 per spin is going to earn the same in COMPDOLLARS as someone else who sits at that same slot machine for two hours playing at a pace of 700 spins per hour at the same $3 per spin. (Side note: the Ts & Cs also make no reference to ETGs, which also earn comp dollars at the same rate as everything else on the floor.)

    If I pick out a slot in high limit that has a machine hold of 8% and I do a single $500 spin and put in no additional play that day, I expect to get $2 in COMPDOLLARS. From the $40 in theo, I would expect to get nothing in back end comps because my comp value would not have covered at least the cost of the room.

    That leads to another important topic -- full vs. partial comping of folio items. For back end, Wynncore will only comp a folio item if you have enough left in the comp bucket to fully cover that item -- after taking any remaining COMPDOLLARS, of course. V/P tends to be this way as well, most of the time. CET and MGM have both done "partial" back end for me in the past. It's the places that give you a reasonable amount of self-spendable comps based on your play that are going to be stricter about comping on the back end. No matter what, you still need to "earn the room."
     
  20. WishMeLuck89

    WishMeLuck89 Tourist

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    I just got a front-end comp at the Venetian with no play history, and the expectation the host gave me was time-based as well.
     
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