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Great Offer Adventure, CP/Cal/?, 7/22-?, CZR/TLC/Boyd/?, (Semi-Live)

Discussion in 'Vegas Trip Reports' started by Tarpie, Jul 31, 2020.

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  1. Tarpie

    Tarpie VIP Whale

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    My Trip Report

    Getting Here

    I've been in Vegas since last Wednesday, 7/22, but just now have had the chance to sit down and start writing a trip report. Working from "home" during the day and chasing comps at night has kept me quite busy.

    I had no plans to come out here until things were somewhat normal, but then Caesars started sending me offers with positive expected value. The 4Q/Binion's promotion was also attractive. That put the bee in my bonnet and I started to talk myself into the trip. I won't go into all my thinking/rationilization. In the end I convinced myself to take advantage of being able to work from anywhere (thanks COVID!) and hit the road for a couple of weeks. I do not know when I will head back...life stuck in a hotel room isn't much different than life stuck in my house.

    Not yet ready to fly and requiring a computer monitor bigger than a laptop screen to be able to do my job, I decided to drive across the country. Left from the DC area at lunchtime Monday. A night at Harrah's Joliet, a night at a Super 8 somewhere west of Denver (felt weird paying for a hotel room!), and six tanks of gas got me to Caesars Palace before 3pm Wednesday. Truck has lane-keep assist and adaptive cruise control so it was super easy driving. Caught up on most of my vegas/gambling podcasts that I had not listened to since March.

    Only snag was my cheapo mint mobile cell plan did not work in Nebraska west of Omaha. Turns out T-Mobile doesn't have their own towers in most of that state.

    Highlights were stopping at a Maid-Rite in Iowa for a pretty tasty loose meat sandwich (all the convenience of a bowl of soup, on a hamburger bun!) and an Original Runza in Nebraska.
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    Next up, four nights at Caesars Palace.
     
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  2. Tarpie

    Tarpie VIP Whale

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    Days 01-02 (no gambling content)

    I checked into Caesars Palace around 3 on Wednesday, 7/22. I had heard that valet was closed due to COVID, so I schlepped my bags over from self-park. Wow that's a haul! I had no idea self-park was past the food court because I usually don't drive in Vegas. Of course it turns out the 7* valet is open and just steps from check-in. Doh!
    Was put up in an Augustus Tower Fountain view room. Very nice and spacious and did have a great view of the fountains. Two days into the trip I opened the fridge and found/smelled the milk the previous occupant had left. Housekeeping not checking the fridges seems to be a recurring theme in TRs lately.

    IMG_20200722_160910.jpg IMG_20200722_160730.jpg
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    Strolled over to Cosmo to get some Hattie B's for lunch. I assume it was due to exhaustion from driving across the country, but I stupidly ordered the "Damn Hot!!" tenders. They weren't stupid hot, but just a little too much for me. Went through all the coleslaw and ranch to make it through them. But man do I love hot chicken. And that pimento mac and cheese is great!
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    Picked up a Truly at CVS on the way back to CP since bars are closed.

    I have markers setup at Rio and Planet Hollywood...not helpful this trip. Went to the CP cage to get a marker setup. The cage, like it would be for the entire trip, was understaffed. And filling out marker paperwork in person was tedious, especially while there is a crowd waiting behind you. Lesson learned so I went up to my room to do the online application for Harrah's and the totally insecure methods for 4Q/Binion's and The Cal. No gambling until I get markers approved.

    Woke up Thursday and wasted the morning doing chores. While getting an oil change I had breakfast at Mustang Sally's in Henderson. Surprisingly good food for a 50's diner in a car dealership. They added garlic and other seasoning to their hash browns and they were amazing!

    Back to the strip and with no markers, no gambling. So I visited the flamingos and toured the closed Laurel Lounges. Paris doesn't give you jack.
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    Had dinner at Old Homestead. I'm staying on east coast time, so I wandered into a mostly empty restaurant at 4:00. Really easy to socially distance at that time. Was disappointed that the bacon appetizer is not on their COVID menu. Ended up with bone marrow, a wedge salad, medium rare ribeye, and mushrooms. Along with four free drinks for the Laurel Lounge being closed. Well, actually the drinks at Old Homestead tend to cost more than $20, so they just deducted $80 off the bill, along with the $10 food credit. After that and using a $100 celebration dinner, I paid $36 in RCs. So I tipped $7. jk...I tipped generously on the full retail price, especially since I assume most waiters/housekeepers/valets/etc. were out of work for a significant amount of time.
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    I noticed that the Montecristo Cigar bar had lounge seating. I assume the drink credit can be used there, but I don't smoke cigars. They also had hostess controlled lounge seating at the Lobby Bar.

    Gambling starts tomorrow
     
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  3. BlueBellThunder

    BlueBellThunder VIP Whale

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    Great TR so far. I did a trip similar, from NJ to Vegas and back. I didn’t drive nowhere near as hard as you did. I left on a Saturday at 7:00am, got to Vegas 3:00pm Tuesday. On the return, I left the following Monday, as 6 days is usually my max in Vegas. I left late that day, so only made it to Winslow. I finally got home on Saturday.

    Are you still in Vegas? If you’re in no rush to get home, take RT66 back. I did from AZ to Texas. I took a detour as I wanted to visit Winstar in OK, and Memphis.
     
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  4. Tarpie

    Tarpie VIP Whale

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    Still here, and may be out here until September. I have not even thought of my route home (other than I will be avoiding Nebraska). Rt.66 is classic Americana, so maybe I will do a southern route back. Get some hatch chiles in NM and brisket in TX. I plan to take a week or two to make the trip back and do some camping/exploring.

    My longest Vegas trip before this one was a Sunday-Sunday trip. I said never again! But I'm on my eleventh day here, so never say never again. But working a 40 hour week from my room changes the whole dynamic and keeps me out of trouble :)

    Glad you had a great trip and traveling adventure.
     
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  5. BoVegas

    BoVegas Low-Roller

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    Following your TR, good luck.
     
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  6. Tarpie

    Tarpie VIP Whale

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    Day 03, Fri 7/24, CP

    The offer that first piqued my interest was from Caesars Rewards. They offered me accomodations and a variety of Apple products or free play. I always take the free play. Ignoring products, my offer was $200 FP with the ability to play 1,000 TCs for $400 FP, 2,500 TCs for $1,000 FP, or 5,000 TCs for $1,500 FP. The 1,000 and 2,500 TC levels both cost 2.5TC/$1FP and the 5,000 TC cost 3.33TC/$FP, but I decided to go for 5,000 TC anyway. The extra 2,500 TC were still positive EV and I needed to show some play to justify four nights in a comped room at CP. My goal was to play 2,500 TC on Friday and another 2,500 TC on Saturday to play at a nice leisurly pace and maximize the daily tier bonuses.

    CZR's best LV video poker has ~1.6% house edge (RIP 0.8% 8/5 BP at Rio). 5,000 TCs require $50,000 coin-in with an expected loss of $800. So the EV of the offer: -$800 loss + $1,500 FP - $24 exp loss of $1,500 coin-in + $50 RCs earned getting 5,000 TCs = $726. That *should* be enough to cover gas for lugging the truck around the country.

    Note, if you have the bankroll, there are cheaper ways to get TCs. 1.6% house edge = -$160 EV for 1,000 TCs. CZR does have a few 9/6 JoB machines, $25 per TC. That yields -$114 EV for 1,000 TCs. The only problem is that all of those 9/6 machines are $5 and up. Too steep for me.

    Got to the "good" 9/5 JoB spin poker a little after the 6am start of the gaming day. I have all day to make 2,500 TC, so I play $1 3-lines. At 600 hands/hour that will get me 2,500 TCs in under three hours of play. 2.5 hours later I'm down a couple hundred $ and head over to Harrah's (or Hurrah's as I've heard a couple people mispronounce it. I think that's a wonderful name for a casino). Another 1/2 hour of play there and I've hit 2,500 TC before 10am, down just a couple hundred $. No highlights at CP, but the machine at Harrah's was more interesting. Still playing three-handed I got dealt quads and turned dealt trips into three full houses. Trips complete to a full house about 1 out of 16 times, so the odds of completing all three were less than 1/4000. So I can do that but not complete even one three or four to a royal :)
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    I had been craving a Sausage McMuffin with Egg so grabbed 1,000 calories worth of them from the Harrah's/Casino Royale McD's. And I confirmed with my own eyes that Casino Royale is now tableless. Sayonara worst dealers on the strip. I love me some BJ switch, but because the dealers were so awful I stopped playing there years ago. The CSR didn't help.

    Did some chores and puttered around the room, then it was time for dinner at Oyster Bar at Harrah's. I've been coming here for a decade plus (since it was Penazzi), but somewhere along the line it got really popular and I haven't been able to eat get in for a couple years. Not a problem right now! They have counter seating open. Just six chairs with lot's of distance. Was still a little uncomfortable when the senior citizen 6 ft away from me started telling me her opinions about COVID while directly facing me without a mask. My discomfort was equal parts from the spittle coming at me from 6ft away and from the stupid political talk. :rolleyes:

    Dinner was good. Had a 1/2 dozen oysters and a delicious shrimp scampi. Sorry no pics. No bread and butter at the beginning (same story at Old Homestead). They were fully aware of the four drink benefit, so I had a bit of wine, and a bit more :). This time they comped each drink instead of giving a credit like OH. Make sense since their drinks are mostly well under the $20 limit.

    After dinner I wandered the strip drinking hard seltzers. As other TRs have mentioned, there are packs of twenty-somethings on mobility scooters everywhere. With the sidewalks being a lot emptier than usual, there's plenty of room for them to get up to high speeds. I'm wondering if some Instagram personality, streamer, or influencer put the idea out there. Or, with the lack of business are the scooter rental places super cheap right now? I've got to say, I had to rent a scooter in AC because of a leg injury and it sucked being stuck on it and having to figure out all the paths I could take. The low light was when the elevator at Wild Wild West broke and I had to ride down the boardwalk in the rain to get back to Bally's. So you won't see me renting one for fun.

    A friend and I have a tradition where I send her a picture of me and Cmdr. Data every time I'm in Vegas. Was hoping to be able to see the display at PH from the Miracle Mile Shops, but no, they actually have a steel door past the sportsbook. :(
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    Made my way back to CP through Cosmo and Bellagio. At 9 on a Friday night there were enough people out and about to make keeping a 6ft bubble difficult. I did figure out that the Bellagio Conservatory live cam has about a 15 second lag as I waved to myself.

    Status: earned 2,500 TC, lost a couple hundred bucks and could stop right now and grab $1,000 FP and almost assuredly leave a winner. But that's not what I'm going to do.
     
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  7. BlueBellThunder

    BlueBellThunder VIP Whale

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    Is this a solo trip?
    Wow, September. I love Vegas, but couldn’t do a month. But I understand, I assume you’ve been working from home since March. I would get tired of looking at the same 4 walls. Will you be able to score comped rooms for the whole month?
     
  8. Tarpie

    Tarpie VIP Whale

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    Day 04, Sat 7/25, CP, Dupar's, Double Secret Offer, Oyster Bar

    I only eat breakfast on the weekends and was looking forward to a maserati omelet at Peppermill. Luckily I drove (usually I walk when I'm carless in Vegas) because I arrived at 6am to find a vacant parking lot, a lot of homeless people, and a restaurant that doesn't open until 7am. Boo. But then, inspiration! I remembered the great hotcakes I got on my one visit to the Golden Gate Dupar's. Google told me there was still a location at Suncoast 15 minutes away. Service was a bit slow (30 minutes from order to food on table) but friendly, and the hotcake was as good as I remembered. Hash browns were meh, but that's pretty standard in Vegas. Tables were quite spread out. Plenty of calories to get me through my video poker day.
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    Back at CP by 7:30, and after performing my morning ablutions, was at the not so lucky 9/5 Job Spin Poker machine at 9:30. Same story as yesterday, down a couple hundred after earning 1,500 TC. So over to Harrah's for a change of pace and 1,000 more TC. Had some excitement when I was dealt a straight flush...why oh why did it have to be king high? Eight high would have been so much more satisfying! Even with a $750 hit I finished up only $15. I would have been steaming without that hit...down $750 on $10k coin-in would have been awful! As I was finishing up my play for the week (or so I thought), I order the first of many Saint Archer IPAs at Harrah's.
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    Strolled around the Venetian Canal Shoppes food court. RIP Anchor Bar (I know it's been gone for awhile now). Wings were meh, but beef on weck is amazing. The Halal Guys at CP and here are both closed (not gutted, just closed). Too bad for me, that's one of drunk Tarpie's favorites. I always have to beg for more hot sauce than they're willing to give this gringo...it really is super hot but I love it. The gondolas were running and singing.

    IMG_20200725_125612.jpg IMG_20200725_124657.jpg

    After that I wandered around the Forum Shops. There were stanchioned lines of people waiting to get into the Gucci and Louis Vuitton stores. Not my bag. Instead of making the turn at the fountain to go to the casino, I kept going straight for the first time in years. Don't think I've been missing much, but it had the only Fat Tuesday I've seen open...with a big line.
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    After wasting a bunch of time, it was finally time to head to the conference room to get my free play. 5,004 TC (I overshot by 4...shame on me) got me $1,500 in FP. Then the clerk pulls the Ron Popeil "but wait, there's more!" CZR had given me a double secret offer. But first, how did that FP work out?
    IMG_20200725_134116.jpg IMG_20200725_150237.jpg IMG_20200725_151333.jpg

    Turned $1,500 of FP into $1,620 cash money! Lost $470 earning the 5,004 TC, for a total profit of $1,150. Expected value was ~$675, so coming out $500 ahead of that without hitting a royal is what the pros call good variance. I guess I don't mind that dealt king-high straight flush after all (but would still love to have a $12k dealt royal).

    Now back to the double secret offer. It looks like I got the same offer as @FABismonte . Another 2,000 TC = $1,000 FP, 5,000 TC = $2,000 FP, and 10,000 TC = $3,750 FP (on top of the $1,500 FP already received). Again, the TC/per $FP dropped as the levels went up, but every level was still expected to be profitable. So instead of relaxing and leisurely preparing for my move to downtown the next day, I now had 10,000 TC to earn in less than 24 hours. Wish I had known about this offer a day earlier.

    Got back to the grind at the 9/5 JoB Spin Poker machine (sorry everyone else who wanted it...I did see a guy playing multi-line $25 VP on it one of the times I wanted to play...CP must love him, other than all the W-2G overhead). Minor loss then went to check out Oyster Bar for dinner for the second night in a row. Missed the 5:00 opening time so the counter had filled up...nothing to do but play VP while I waited! Took a massive hit getting to 2,500 more TCs for the day.

    By then, the first wave had finished at Oyster Bar and I got a seat at the counter. No annoying conversation this time. Went with another 1/2 dozen oysters and seafood linguine. It was delicious, but a bit of work pulling all the shells out. I really am that lazy. Drink comps were given seamlessly just like the night before. But this was the second night with a lot of broken shell in the oysters...I think I know which shucker to avoid now. I'm pretty sure my chef/waiter took care of me on my first visit over a decade ago. Always nice to see a company able to retain an employee that long, especially in the restaurant industry.
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    Took another decent sized hit playing 1,500 TCs worth of VP at Harrah's before the martinis and IPAs caught up with me. At this point I kind of wish I hadn't heard of the double secret offer. I still need 6,000 TCs and I'm 50% of the value of the FP in the hole.

    Status: Earned $1,500 FP and turned it into $1,620 cash. Down a few hundred on trip in the middle of chasing second FP offer.

    Up next: More VP. Peppermill? Move to Downtown.
     
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  9. Tarpie

    Tarpie VIP Whale

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    Yes, solo. So it's nice to see a different four walls and a different view walking around in the evening.

    If I was willing to put in the effort and willing to stay anywhere then I probably could have pulled off a month of comps. CZRs only let's you do five nights at a time (I think with a two day break between stays in the same market). I also don't want to burn my ADT to the ground and lose future offers.

    So I spent this week at the Cal semi-comped six nights for ~$200 total. Back to CP this week, and then probably back to Cal the following week. It's cheap enough and has a good setup for setting up my workstation.

    4Q will give me rooms, but the elevators looked crowded on the weeknights I've played there.

    I'll probably hit Tahoe for a week at some point just to see some blue instead of brown.
     
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  10. Tarpie

    Tarpie VIP Whale

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    Day 05a, Sun 7/26, CP, Dupar's, Double Secret Offer

    Up and raring to get those last 6,000 TCs at 4:30. No contention for the 9/5 Spin poker machine at that time! Took a medium hit knocking out a quick 1,000 TCs before 6am, leaving 5,000 TCs to earn during the new gaming day to maximize the daily bonus and the FP offer. I can't believe I had to get 7,500 TCs in one gaming day...I always stop on tier credit bonus boundaries.

    Learning my lesson from yesterday, I wait until 7 to head to Peppermill. If you read the title, you already know I didn't get to eat there. Lot's of construction going on in that area of the strip...I assume that's why they didn't have water. Did a little googling and couldn't think of any better option than heading back to Dupar's. Another great hotcake. Omelet full of bacon with avocado on top was tasty. Blueberry muffin was adequate, but wasn't in the same league as Wegman's grocery store muffins. Should be enough carbs to handle moving luggage :)
    IMG_20200726_070842.jpg IMG_20200726_074448.jpg

    Got back to CP. Switched to 5 lines on the Spin poker to knock out 5,000 TCs faster. Took another big hit getting 2,500 TCs. Am I going to lose money on this??? Why is this going so poorly???

    After finishing packing and stowing luggage in the truck, I went over to Harrah's to see if that would change my luck. [Narrator: it did not] Another big loss getting 1,800 TCs. Merde. Back to CP. The spin poker machine in the HL room was taken, but the one in the HL area was open. Of course nothing attracts extroverts like an introvert, so immediately a guy sat down two machines over, lit a cigarette, and started talking about both of our video poker sessions while pulling his mask down so I could hear him. Wunderbar. Got even better when he hit a handpay so had nothing better to do than watch and comment on my play. But I needed just 700 TCs so just knuckled down and got it done. Finally some good news! Dealt quads to save the day right before finishing. Still lost quite a bit getting 10,000 more TCs.

    Back to the conference room and then the still understaffed cage to get the $3,750 FP. Finally, back to my nemesis, the HL room spin poker machine. $3,750 FP in, one straight flush along the way, and cashed out $3,535. Very poor redemption, but it did get me my first bundle from the cage. Would be a lot more exciting if I hadn't taken $5,000 in markers :)
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    In the end the double secret offer was kind of a wash. I lost $3,367 earning the 10,000 TCs, then turned the FP into $3,535 (heh, the Linq's street address). Came out ahead $168. Expected value was $3,750 - 1.6% * (3750 + $100,000) = $2090, so over $1,900 low! At least it was positive and should keep CZRs happy with me.

    Overall, I played 31,051 hands of $1 JoB without hitting a royal. For my entire four night stay with both FP offers I made a profit of ~$1,300 and earned $150 of RCs. Also had quite a few comped drinks. Cannot complain about that, even with few fun video poker sessions.

    Status: Up $1,300 on trip. No royals.

    Up next: Moving downtown, staying at the Cal, going after TLC promos.
     
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  11. Tarpie

    Tarpie VIP Whale

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    Day 05b, Sun 7/26, Cal, Chicago Brewing

    After finishing up at CP, it was time to move downtown for the week. It's not as noticeable when you're right next to it, but Circa towers over downtown.
    IMG_20200726_142550.jpg

    Checked into the Cal mid-afternoon. Asked for a non-connecting room (I'll be up and working at 4am, don't want to disturb anyone with my clickety-clacking on the keyboard) and to be away from the Circa construction noise. So they put me at the end of the hallway, overlooking MSS. Room was perfect for my needs. During the week I even managed to capture the front of two moving trains passing each other! Almost as exciting as hitting a royal :)
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    After inspecting the room, it was time to bring my workstation up. I was prepared to deal with security having an issue with my large tote on a hand trolley. I "disguised" it with normal luggage and a cooler. Surprisingly, no one batted an eye as I rolled it all the way across the casino floor. It wasn't too arduous getting everything setup, and the Cal's wifi was rock-solid all week long. No VPN drops.
    IMG_20200726_152509.jpg IMG_20200726_170249.jpg

    Grabbed dinner at Chicago Brewing at 4Q. The prime rib sliders are great. Glad I finally got food there...service has been so horrible in the past that I was never even able to get my order taken. With the VP machines turned off and no walk-up ordering, the staff just has tables to service and does an adequate (not good) job. I do like the beer there...and it's the closest I can get to Boar's Head Bar and 777 right now :(
    IMG_20200726_183013.jpg

    After dinner I lost a little running some coin-in through the 9/6 JoB at the Cal just to see what kind of tier credits it earned. I don't trust my accounting after the IPAs, so I ended up doing a survey of different machines at the Cal later in the week. Stay tuned for that. I did swipe and earn 11x pts, which was nice.

    Early to bed because I'll be up and working at 7am EDT.

    Status: Up $1,200 on trip. No royals.
    Up next: Hawaiian food, TLC promos, Another Chicago Brewing Dinner
     
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  12. Ty

    Ty ?

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    Following along. Enjoying hearing about downtown.
    Good luck!
     
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  13. Flowers

    Flowers VIP Whale

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    OMG. I am so excited for you and so following this report! I drove across the country and back in the summer of 2008, including having spent an entire month (mid-July to mid-August) in Las Vegas, and when I left, there were still things I wanted to do that I hadn't done.

    So glad you got there safely.

    Wishing you a productive WFH experience (I say that 100% sincerely -- I too can work from anywhere with a good broadband connection), a spectacular and winning time in Vegas (I've had great trips, even when I lost, but breaking even to winning ones are even better) and a wonderful journey back home.
     
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  14. Flowers

    Flowers VIP Whale

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    Love your tentative plans for the return home. Even that portion of your trip will be a once-in-a-lifetime experience that, sadly, the majority of Americans will never experience.
     
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  15. Flowers

    Flowers VIP Whale

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    As you will be there a few more weeks, you may want to give Palace Station a try. The casino has been renovated recently, there are some good value restaurants there, there are various multiplier promos and it's quick drive from the strip if you want to be close by. It's also connected to a number of other stations properties and there is usually a promo going on on a given day. I'm sure your room would be comped off at the end and you'd get offers for future comps that, via a host, might kick in during your trip.

    When I spent a month in Vegas 12 years ago I was a low roller but played enough from a time/Theo perspective that the entire month, save a few days, relied on comped room offers. It meant moving around with some frequency but I had a car, it was a good change of pace and of course free is free. Most of the trip were CET hotel stays, using Station Casino stays (Palace, Red Rock, etc.) for 2 or 3 days in between CET comped offers. I also stayed at Tuscany once and at the El Cortez cabana suites once. And this was before I had comps at Cosmo or any MGM property.
     
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  16. BlueBellThunder

    BlueBellThunder VIP Whale

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    If you do take the southern route back, just before Winslow AZ, there’s Meteor Crater. I thought it was cool.
     
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  17. FABismonte

    FABismonte Tell my wife I am "about even."

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2009
    Messages:
    3,793
    Location:
    Silicon Valley, CA
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    88
    @Tarpie I am sorry you also dropped a bunch of money chasing the secret, additional free play at CP like I did. Like you I never hit a Royal despite my heavy action. I am glad however you converted your free play Better than I did.

    FAB
     
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  18. AyDee

    AyDee is getting too old for this

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2019
    Messages:
    6,288
    Location:
    City Of Angels
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    888
    Hey, @Tarpie!
    Just wanted to thank you for showing a pic of your workstation, ever since you posted about needing a full monitor, I was wondering what type of rig you were running- I imagined a desktop and multi-monitors, popped in here to ask and you already did it.

    Have a close friend that can also basically work from anywhere w. a good wifi connection, and we have discussed coming out together, but it hasn't happened yet, anything you can add whenever about ups and down from the working angle would be appreciated.

    I imagine you pay for the wifi upgrade, the Cal free wifi was unusable trash for us, would disconnect in less than 5 minutes almost every time... Good to know there's a functional option.

    Cosmo wifi would tend to cut out on the balcony, also.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
  19. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2013
    Messages:
    31,300
    Location:
    Chicagoland
    Trips to Las Vegas:
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    Good stuff so far!
     
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  20. Necrochaos

    Necrochaos VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2020
    Messages:
    1,479
    Location:
    Michigan
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    3
    @Tarpie - Great read!

    I don't know how you all know so much about tier credits, how to get them, what you get out of it etc.

    I just play craps most of the time, so I don't get much in the way of comps, credits or offers. My wife does, but we bounce around to so many casinos that we don't cash in on too much of it.

    She's a penny slot player, so the casinos love her. Maybe someday we will get into the tier chasing and figure all of this out.
     
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