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Beware: denied Seven Stars for "overcomped"

Discussion in 'Comps' started by skyscanner, Nov 4, 2019.

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  1. The Rumor

    The Rumor VIP Whale

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    welcome to mlife, where we gutted comps at Oct 1!!!! Welcome to Boyd where we murdered VP play!!! Etc.

    tough thing to run on for a long time when you end up making changes yourself

    The core 7 stars/near seven stars player (a) gets a very competitive deal from 7* and (b) is getting many other comps (R/F/B/free play stuff) that matters so much more than some rando story on the internet
     
  2. fasbman

    fasbman VIP Whale

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    Almost anything "may" happen, and as I said, he can go "scorched earth" if he wants. However, I have a feeling that he shut the conversation down by citing a new Nevada law and demanding his comp records (again, I have no idea if the law is truly applicable or not). It has been my experience, that while David may have beaten Goliath in the bible, it seldom happens in modern day life. To me, this falls under the category of "pick your battles".
     
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  3. Viva Las Vegas

    Viva Las Vegas Elvis has left the building

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    Plenty of good independent options across the valley at various price points.

    Wynn and Cosmopolitan standard rooms are superior to any other standard casino rooms on the strip. Treasure Island, Tropicana and Sahara at mid-range, Circus Circus at the lower end. Resorts World is likely coming online next year. V/P is another option, just not one I am interested in.

    To the South, South Point and M Resort have excellent rooms and casinos, Silverton is a decent as well. All of downtown except the two Boyd casinos are non chain. With Steve Wynn out of the picture, Derek Stevens is the only current owner creating something different and interesting in the Valley. The only compliant I ever hear about him or his casino is the music volume on the first floor of the D. Terry Caudill is under capitalized, but at least he is not out there pawning his properties to anyone with actual cash, and he doesn't burden his property with bankrupt level debt ala CET and Stations (and MGM unless they continue their spree to shore up their BS).

    JW Marriott / Rampart another great option.
     
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  4. sinnerman

    sinnerman VIP Whale

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    It would be interesting to see if CET now denies people 7* if they only have hospitality spend.

    30k spend (i.e. 150k TC) should be easy for some club-goers who get bottle service. I wonder if CET will give them a 7* invite or not.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
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  5. Flowers

    Flowers VIP Whale

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    And folks wondering if that will be case is not what I would think CET would want. It will be interesting what the 2020 Ts and Cs for Seven Stars will say.
     
  6. MCann

    MCann I can't complain, but sometimes I still do...

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    Ok, so after having read this entire 8 pages so far, I have a few thoughts to share, and pardon the length but I think its relevant to show my work here just in case I made a calculation error. I do think this has thread has almost beaten the dead horse to a 6 foot deep hole by now, but I hope by breaking this down it can help some understand there is simple and obvious math behind this, and it's very reasonable and expected, in my opinion. I mean absolutely no disrespect to the OP and do understand the frustration, and that CET rewards staff arent always clear on policies, and rhat talking to three in the same day can give you 3 contradicting answers to the same question. I get all that; it drives me crazy too.

    First and foremost, for anyone and everyone who is disappointed by this, have you ever, in any way shape or form, seen Caesar's officially advertise that you will get 7* invite for making 150k TC, whether or not 80% of them come from bonus credits and multipliers? I go knee deep in this stuff because I have a hurry up and wait type job with plenty of down time, and my inner @notfromconcentrate has an insatiable urge to understand the system as well as possible to get the most benefit. I've never seen *them* as in CET say you will get 7* if you reach 150k. I've seen them say you need to get 150k to be considered for an invitation, and that membership is by invitation only, and at their full discretion, and they they can change the rules or adjust any player any way at any time for any reason. It's a players club, and this is an invite-only reward for their most elite players. OP, as a player in the casino, is barely on par gaming-wise with the average player who is barely lounge access level diamond plus, but has taken significantly more time to get there, has spent a little more on rooms maybe, and has been given diamond plus benefits, and from what I understand, will continue to get them and diamond elite level next year.

    Considering 150k coin in and 75% VP at 3% hold, and assuming the rest is all slots at 10% hold, which is probably unreasonably high, because some was admittedly table gaming, some with likely lower theo even than VP, as several have pointed out, is an annual theo of about $7,125 (actual reported loss is even less than that calculated theo at 6.5k, so OP is already beating the system here). 30% of that theo is $2,137.50 comp value generated for the entire year on $150,000 coin in with that breakdown in play. That play earned $112.50 in reward credits on VP and another $75 from slot play, which is comp kickback, so subtract that $187.50 from the initial $2,137.50 in comp value for the year, and you get $1,950 remaining comp dollars on the year. There was also a $100 diamond dinner credit whether or not he used it, so we're down to $1,850 remaining comp value.

    So, from an $1,850 total annual comp earning, somewhere between $3,300 and $5,100 was given back in waived resort fees over 100 stays assuming Las Vegas and a bunch of stays prior to the October resort fee increases. A reasonable amount is probably around $4,000 but even we stick with $3,300 and subtract that from the $1,850 remaining comp value generated, we're at (- $1,450) on the year.

    Now I still have to pay to get in the lounge, and they charge me $10 in reward credits per entry, so let's call that a $10 value per trip. Doesnt matter what I do or do not eat or drink; they charge $10 in comp value for me to walk in the door. If OP visited the lounge just once each on just half his trips, that's another $500 in comp value, so we're sitting pretty now at (- $1,950) based on the theo for the whole year, so CET is sitting almost $2,000 in the hole on the year on kickbacks to OP, and OP is upset that they don't want to give him an invite-only status reserved for elite players, which he is not even close to being, that has another $3,000-4,500 in hard comp value. That would put them over $5,000 in the hole on his comps instead of the roughly $2,000 in the red they already are. And they are still going to leave diamond plus, or more likely elite, in tact, meaning OP will still likely get the $650 or whatever it is airfare credit, free room benefit for elite, another diamond dinner, and continue to get $50-60 per day on the low end for lounge visits and waived resort fees for another whole year should he choose to return.

    They are way in the hole on this deal already and I am not even remotely surprised they dont want to comp another 3-4-5k in trips, rooms, airfare, food credit, and events on this person on whom they're already losing significant money. Not to mention the negative PR to people who did the $750,000 minimum coin in over far less time to earn that status. How would you feel if you spent over 750k gambling to make this status and found out they gave it to a 300TC per day gamer on $150k total coin in with > 80% being bonus and multiplier TCs and hotel spend? That would likely rub some high rollers the wrong way. Who do you think they care more about in this conflict?

    After doing the math and really thinking it through, I'd think someone would have to have no idea of the how and why and math of comps and rewards programs, or be a completely unreasonable person to think this is in any way a legitimate gripe. I understand being upset as OP over any misunderstanding or miscommunication with individual staff, but having never seen advertised that anyone would get automatic seven star for simply earning 150k TC, and that it is advertised as invite only everywhere you look, I think it's unreasonable to be upset about not getting it under the circumstances presented. If someone had asked me what I thought was a reasonable situation where someone would not get an invite, I would have imagined and devised a set of circumstances and math far less exploitative than this.

    I do strongly disagree with them calling it "abuse" because OP just tried to take maximum advantage of their promotions without breaking any rules and with as far as we know, no warning or indication of any problem from CR, but I do think its unreasonable for someone who has already been over comped to the tune of $2,000 on the year plus already earned over $1,000 in hard benefits for next year, and who retains waived resort fees and free lounge access to expect another several thousand dollars in comps and an elite invite-only status on top of that.

    Long story short, OP was already overcomped by over 150% of his total generated annual comp value for his theo when you consider just the diamond benefits already earned for this year and next year, and experienced even less realized loss than that theo, so it is hard to argue he is not significantly overcomped as-is, and I cant imagine being upset that they arent doubling their loss and upping his tier status based on this and his very well established history of not playing big money. Be upset with individual employees who assumed he was earning more than 20% of his points through actual gaming and or didnt know what they were talking about if they told him he would definitely get 7 stars at 150k TC, but as much as Caesar's has infuriated me be by being cheap or misleading one way or another over the course of the year, I can't help but strongly support their side in this issue. Even if one of their employees told you this, unless they have it written in policy that an employee was directed to tell you this, it's still unreasonable to expect a company who had already taken a few thousand dollar loss on one person to extend that to an additional 3 to 5 thousand in losses based on something an employee allegedly told you that contradicts their written published terms and conditions.

    Sounds like you beat your theo, got overcomped, and are still getting every advertised benefit for next year. Take that win and run man! Or, take your money elsewhere, but if you expect to go elsewhere and be overcomped, and then get double-overcomped at the end of the year plus an elite status upgrade as a reward at ANY casino, you are most likely setting yourself up for disappointment.
     
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  7. Iratus

    Iratus Low-Roller

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    Its frustrating but at the end of the day does it matter? It’s better for your health and happiness to stop caring so much. You tried to game it (albeit encouraged), it didn’t work out, it’s a bit unfair but meh.

    Whilst it would be cool for the card and sure a cruise is nice if you’re into that but at the end of the day it’s not like you’re gonna have 20 year olds propositioning you because of a little card and the value of comps is offers and back end, not status. They wouldn’t have changed.

    I lose your annual theo in a day, day and half. I’m only Diamond because of status match and then have Cosmo Gold. Who cares, it doesn’t matter. Truly. Save the gamification trap for the gaming.

    If you’re salty about it, go play black chip Blackjack for a few hours, get like a 300 TC and stare at your empty wallet. Puts shit in perspective :D
     
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  8. NotFromConcentrate

    NotFromConcentrate It’s a Cassowary :)

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    Thanks for actually doing the math in full, and putting into perspective how bad of a deal this already is for CET. You also raised a great point with the piss-off factor of players who actually "earned it". I'm sure they got no small amount of flak from diamond-level players when FoundersCard users became diamond just for spending $400. Since pissing off your average Seven Stars player can have much costlier implications, I can fully understand their defensive approach from an optics perspective, beyond just a cost perspective.
     
    [TENTATIVE Late Jul/Early Aug] Vegas by way of Chicago/Elko/Reno!
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  9. Cardeater

    Cardeater Low-Roller

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    Yeah, I've never heard of that happening. I'm probably costing the casino money bc I only play at home yet go to Vegas bc of the cheap rooms and comp resort fees plus lounges and show tickets. I rarely plays there. I still get a discount.

    I have a friend that got diamond from Founders and probably has less than 500 tier total for last 3 years combined. He still shows a discount for Vegas rooms.
     
  10. Jejas

    Jejas VIP Whale

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    This.
     
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  11. 3544quebec

    3544quebec High-Roller

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    This is what the email sent to me who had already reached 130,000 TCs on my way to Seven Stars requalification advertising the TC multiplier in AC actually said - it clearly is misleading and lacks transparency. It is not a given that earning tier credits would result in an upgrade in status

    UPGRADE YOUR STATUS
    5X TIER CREDITS

    MONDAYS IN OCTOBER
    Increase your Tier Status faster when you play and earn at any of our Atlantic City properties.
     
  12. 3OfDiamonds

    3OfDiamonds Waiting For “Very Good” Video Poker @ Rio…

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    So weird IMO why so many are acting like what CET did is ok... the a-hole (Caesars employee) who labeled the OP’s actions, which were encouraged by the offers they received, “abuse” (seriously!? :eek::rolleyes2::cuss:) deserves some time in the stocks :thumbsdown:
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
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  13. dankyone

    dankyone VIP Whale

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    Most communications from CET are misleading, unclear, ambiguous, and poorly written.

    This “Upgrade your Status” email is no exception, but it promises nothing.
     
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  14. 3544quebec

    3544quebec High-Roller

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    No it doesn't promise - it states without specific disclaimers: Increase your Tier Status faster
     
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  15. NickG

    NickG Low-Roller

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    I can’t believe how many people on this board seem to be on CET’s side here.

    It may very well be that OP is not a profitable customer for CET. And it is certainly true that 7* is technically “by invitation only”.

    But OP was directly told by multiple official representatives of CET that he would be given the status unless he has a trespass or an unpaid market, and then encouraged to gamble more by these official representative on the promise that he would receive this status.

    This sounds like an “invitation” to me, or at least a good faith offer by the casino to extend this status to him contingent on his play. I imagine CET is ultimately legally protected by some minutiae of the gambling laws that are always written to benefit the casinos. But from a plain meaning standpoint, this sounds like a straightforward example of corporate fraud to me.

    It is very possible that CET would lose money by giving OP 7* status. But they could very well lose a lot more money due to the negative publicity that will come with this. How many people who were thinking of pursuing 7* in the future will take their business elsewhere if they think the status will be arbitrarily denied to them as well. And Caesars would absolutely deserve to lose this money.
     
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  16. Multifarious5

    Multifarious5 VIP Whale

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    This makes me feel much better if its by invitation only. I'm Mlife/Cosmo, and everytime I think of dabbling my toes in CET, stuff like this, changing diamond qualifications at the very end of the year, etc. makes me skittish of CET.

    Mlife noir is "by invitation only"....no misleading "goals"...love this. They don't even promise waived resort fees for any tier, but I haven't paid resort fees for years. Quite frankly, mlife's advertised tier perks suck. But at least they're not promising the moon and delivering a stale Moon Pie.

    I'm always more comfortable with "under-promising, over delivering," than setting a set goal (x tier for x tier credits) then back-peddling. So, if its by invitation only, this makes me a little more comfortable.

    Dumb analogy, but its like a Safeway grocery store's $10 coupon for $50 spent. They say "except on alcohol, tobacco, lottery tickets"...very tranparent. But if someone stocks up on a killer sale (equivalent of hotel spend), they still honor it, because they never said "based on full price only".

    If its by invitation only, why mentioned 150k? Just leave off 150k. Only want heavy players? Stipulate "hotel spend doesnt count towards 7 tier status." They write the rules, so I dont have a ton of sympathy if someone finds a legal loophole.

    Maybe the OP left some stuff off, and yes, seven stars IS for heavy players, but this isn't the first I've read of CET shell switches. I just am a little leery of how often they seem to cry "foul" when someone learns to legally navigate the rules THEY designed.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
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  17. alanleroy

    alanleroy Click my avatar

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    You're probably right for the players who are loyal high rollers who make 7 Stars year after year. I know many players make a conscious decision to put in the play to take them from Diamond to 7 Stars or are considering switching from another club to CET for the perceived perks. They're the ones who might think twice about the risk/reward when they know the reward isn't really dependent on their tier score but some hidden evaluation of their worthiness. You can see people in this very thread who say it will impact their play. So no. It's not the same as bad room review.
     
  18. eksantirik

    eksantirik High-Roller

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    I think loyalty programs are very easy on the low-rollers and very harsh on the serious players. I am very much a low-roller and during my 16 trips, I utilized several free rooms with Mlife. And I rarely play enough to cover the room but the marketing offers keep coming in. So, I am a happy camper, even if they make me pay the resort fee. I stay at pretty good hotels for basically $40-45 a night and enjoy gambling as much as I can stomach. So, I keep going back to Mlife every trip.

    In your case, even if 7 stars is invitation only and at their discretion, it's no way to treat a $100K+ coin in customer. They could have been more understanding and even apologetic with you, with more clear reasons provided as to why you didn't get it. They treated you almost like a counter, and as if they never want your play again. If I were you, as many have said, I would've voted with my feet, and never give any of my money to CET.
     
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  19. txaggie06

    txaggie06 Tourist

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    I burned my comps with CET over the past 1.5 years to shift my play to COSMO. In all Honesty it seems like your play just isn’t where it should be. I booked rooms with offers and low played and almost no played them and just today I got a call begging me to come back.... my offers went from 375 free play to 20 just so you know I’m not full if bs. If your play warranted 7 Stars they wouldn’t have hesitated to give it to you. Sorry.
     
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  20. eksantirik

    eksantirik High-Roller

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    Wow, I never heard such a thing. I guessed it was all based on theo, and this thing you mentioned is very subjective on their part. To mitigate this idiocity, it makes sense for a serious player to take the card out when they get a 3 or 4 to a RF. That way, if they end up getting an RF, it will not be on their account.
     
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