Indian Casino Payback Percentages

Hello everyone! It's been ages since I've posted here!

I'm trying to settle a disagreement between myself and my husband about something. We recently moved to Northern California and our local is Thunder Valley. When I compare dollar for dollar our play at TV and our play in Vegas (on strip) recently - we had much better luck in Vegas than we do at the local.

Is it true that Indian casinos can set their payback percentages to whatever they want and can change them at any time? I've heard rumors that they "loosen" them up during the weekdays and "tighten" them in the evenings and on weekends when most people are gambling.

My husband says that is not the case - that they are regulated just like Vegas casinos.

I thought you all would be the best to ask! TIA!

 

I won't gamble in California Indian casinos because of this:

California’s tribes aren’t required to release information on their slot machine percentage paybacks and the state of California does not require any minimum returns.

 

Since slot payouts are not posted on machines, one must use other games to calculate a casino's fairness to players. These include blackjack rules and video poker payouts. Using these, the best casino I have found outside of Las Vegas is an Indian casino- Soaring Eagle in Michigan, operated by the Saginaw Chippewas. Blackjack rules (last I checked) were reasonably fair, and video poker was good to very good. I trust Soaring Eagle.

I now live in the state of Washington, where all casinos are Indian casinos. Video poker machines are Class II machines that use a lottery system instead of a true deck with a random deal and draw. There is no way to determine true odds by looking at such machines. I have not researched slots or table games but have no reason to assume they are any better. Therefore, I do not gamble in Washington.

California is a hodgepodge. FWIW, Thunder Valley is rated okay for video poker by VP Free, so maybe its slots are also decent. Then again, I will not play on the Strip in Vegas. Games are better in other parts of town. So there's more to selecting a casino than the odds.

 

Ive read reports maybe someone here can confirm that Harrahs Cherokee actually pays out less than state minimum, meaning they pay a fine to the state but make more money by screwing their customers. If one does it, i presume that a lot of them do it.

 

Wisconsin Tribals post no payback percentages either. One of their former employees indicated that machines were adjusted when they felt like it and that they only had to make sure that one machine out of a bank was actually 'paying out' (normally up to 12 in a bank) in order to remain out of hot water with the State. That's a pretty basic way to describe it, but at the time she told me a couple years ago she used the appropriate technical language.

 

I have tribal casinos located less than an hour from my house. (Silver Star Casino & Golden Moon Casino both located at the Pearl River Resort) Both are owned and managed by the Choctaw tribe. Their only oversight is by the Choctaw Gaming Commission. It is truly a case of the wolf guarding the hen house. They have some of the absolute worst video poker pay tables (6/5 JOB) I have seen regardless of denomination. I don't trust their slot payouts at all based on tons of anecdotal evidence offered by friends and neighbors. . Oddly enough, they have some very favorable table game rules so that is what I play if I leave the poker room for some reason.

 

I know numerous people who have stopped patronizing this resort because no one seems to win on their slots....table games have much better rules and a fairly nice poker room are about it.

 

The machines at Blackbird Bend Casino (nee' Casino Omaha before the Big Flood) always seem to pay about the same as anywhere. However, I seldom go there since the three that are much closer opened up.

 

Everyone likes to think that Indians run without rules . In reality, they operate much like any other casino.

In areas where casinos are clustered, no one is dumb enough to cut down to the bone for odds. Since you will take your action elsewhere. The vast majority of Native Casinos have no direct competition. So yes they will screw you some. But they are still under regulatory watch.

I believe when the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act was passed, casinos could not offer gaming that fell below operations in Nevada and New jersey (The 2 states that had legal gaming at the time.) In NV, it was 75% payback. NJ was like 83%. Some states that later approved gaming in their backyard have raised that even higher to be approved.

So as long as the Natives did not drop below that, they were fine. Considering most slot makers do not have many options below 80%, since they are hardly purchased and would require new math runs and then getting those approved by regulations, consider it false that Native casinos payback something crazy like just 50%.

That regulatory watch? It is made up of a Commission The head needs to be approved by US President themselves. And in case they picked the wrong person, the Senate must approve as well. The other members are appointed by the Secretary of the Interior. And all of them must be vetted by the US Attorney General. These are the people that audit, review, inspect and generally watch over it all.

The notion that a casino would screw players on payback, and just pay a fine, is false. That casino could be shut down if found in violation. Fees are imposed for short paying a player at the tables, not having enough money on hand to cover all wages placed, not reporting earnings on table and other such things. If a casino fucks you on purpose, they risk being shut down and forfeit their license. They would not do this to screw you on a slot machine.

The only real mystery to Indian casinos is the fact that they do not have to publicly report anything. And that is what leads to so much speculation on what goes on. But they absolutely must report to the Commission. THEY know the holds on the machines. THEY make sure they do not drop below where they, by law, must be. They are just not allowed to share that info with us, unless the casino says it is OK to do so.

Some Native joints do release that info. Look at Connecticut. The Indian casinos there return 90% on pennies and 93.5 on dollars. Pretty much the same as the Strip.

Very few of them have a linked slot floor. The notion of a magic button being pushed to tighten and loosen slots is a myth. The sad realty is, depending on how isolate your local casino is from competition, those machines are always set to pluck you more then the major markets.

When you are the only guy in town selling Crack, you can charge more for it. Easy as that.

 

I can't speak to other states because I just don't know. Here in Washington, the Bardolator is right. In the mid nineties I had friends open what is called here, a mini casino. These are privately owned operations that offer a variety of card games, BJ, 3 Card Poker, Let It Ride etc. In going through the process to get the license they acquired some inside info. One fact pertained to the compact (the agreement the tribes must adhere to) to have electronic gaming. Machines here are legally called Video Lottery Terminals. The upshot is that over the life of the machine, the payout will be equivalent to the state lottery payout, which is only 60%! This as of 20 years ago or so. It's possible it's increased by way of negotiation, but I doubt it. Why would the casinos decrease their hold when they are filling the joints as it is. When I've brought this up in the past, most friends who play machines had no Idea. Nevada minimum pay is 75%, most machines will be 85% on up. Lots of difference between 60 and 85!

Good Luck!
Ric at Joes

 

Around here anyway, Blackbird Bend and WinnaVegas are just a couple of exits apart, and they are indeed in competition. Both are actually in competition with the larger casinos in the Omaha and Sioux City areas as well.

 

Some really interesting stuff does go on at our local sometimes lol. One player was not happy and was grumbling to the guy next to him (who is a friend of my moms) that he was going to call the State gaming commission. A couple minutes later he hits a hand pay. When he was paid out the 2nd person monitoring the payout waited and asked him afterwards (in a not very nice manner) 'Well are you still going to report us to the gaming commission now?'. My moms friend was a bit freaked out in watching this unfold as the 'grumbler' was not loud with his 'threat' & couldn't be overheard in any normal manner. Moms friend is convinced they have audio monitoring of players, which I suppose is possible but not sure what value the casino would get from it.

And there are the entertaining things from the players......

-One player put his fist through the glass on the machine because he was losing. I guess replacing that is pretty expensive!

-Another decided to drop his fly and christen the machine when he wasn't winning. My understanding is he was then totally banned from property (and had to pay for the machine repairs also). They took that machine off the floor in a big hurry.

One of the sadder things about living in a small town is you know some of the people that lost their homes etc. because they gambled too heavily. In regional newspaper headlines (hour or so away), there have been a few cases of embezzlement in the last few years because of gambling problems.

 

The Potawatomi fought very hard to stop competition from opening up 25 miles south of them. The Seminoles wanted to open a hard rock casino and got denied by the governor for approval. This is in southeast Wisconsin

 

My experience is anecdotal, but about a year ago I visited Foxwoods in CT and the only way my bankroll would have lasted longer would be if I set each $20 bill on fire.

I also took business trip to Syracuse and visited the Yellow Brick Road Casino located in an unpronounceable burg with way too many consonants. Played max coin VP for about an hour and a half and never got a single 4 oak. Played some slots without any better results.

 

This is incorrect. The minimum payback on these virtual scratch-off games is 75%, the same as Nevada. See the bottom of page 8 in this linked PDF. Of course video poker is just a glorified slot machine in this state thanks to this dumb (imo) setup.

https://www.wsgc.wa.gov/sites/default/files/public/appendix-x.pdf

I would also assume the payback is also typically higher than this. Many game manufacturers have minimum payback settings above 80%. And offering only 75% payback may not be the optimal way to make money off people anyway. At some point, people will actually quit playing these machines if they payout too badly.