Table Games Can a shooter influence the dice?

This discussion seems to come up on a lot of threads but I have never seen a poll about it to see how many people are on which side. So the question is can a shooter in craps influence, control (call it whatever you want) the dice to improve their odds? This is assuming a legal roll.

 

yes but this usually devolves into two different arguements

the dozens of variables to account for in a physics sense (pyramids, felt, ability to get used to table difference, air temp and humidity.etc)

all the while ignoring that many of these variables are faces by pro golfers, and other athletes, yet you wouldn't go up against any of them for money


the other argument is strictly based on statistics and assumptions on the physics and then devolves into assuming dice influence = telekinesis or ability to throw any number you choose each time

 

YES

 

I'm definitely in the agnostic camp on this one.

Obviously, no reasonable argument can be made that it isn't possible in theory. But I haven't seen any rigorous studies/statistics/evidence showing that it can be done successfully enough to make a meaningful impact on the odds of the game in practice. Nor have I ever experienced anything that would make me think I was playing with someone who could influence the dice enough to matter.

 

I think the best dice setter could reduce their probability to seven out a tiny amount. I seem to be at table's where the people that set the dice must be doing it wrong because they seem to seven out more than what would be expected.

 

No way.

 

anybody can set 2 dice together, doesn't make them a practiced dice setter/influencer

book and it's cover

 

I'll say this about it:
If a shooter places the dice in the same spot on the felt, with the same numbers-up, and tosses them to the exact same spot against the back-wall every time, (all possible), then I could see where the outcome might show a bias to a particular number or group of numbers.

 

I agree it is THEORETICALLY possible, but I believe in practice it is not possible.

 

So if a baseball pitcher has good nights and bad nights, would a dice setter have them, too?

I do not believe one can be precise enough to control dice with a legal throw.

 

This has been argued many times!

I think the question is incomplete.

A better question would be "Can a shooter influence the dice long term?"

The answer would be a definite no in my opinion.

In the short term one could be convinced that proper technique of muscle memory in holding and shooting the dice to a precise spot could result in a series of precise rolls. But have you ever seen a dice setter roll 24 elevens in a row? Show me somebody that can and give me a bottle of Grey Poupon and I'll have my iPad for lunch! Air currents, soft spots in the table, morons placing late bets and hands touching the dice, chip stack hits and the occasional unbalanced die all can affect the results.

If the dice can be truly controlled then that person should be able to roll the exact same number anytime he or she wants to. If what they do is to have long rolls avoiding the seven, look at how the numbers making up the seven are arranged on the die. How would you control avoiding six combinations? All the time?

Shooters get on good rolls all the time. Twice over the years I rolled for over 15 minutes. That's nothing for many but I attribute it to random numbers, not technique.

If you generate a million random numbers between 1 and 36, simulating dice rolls, you'll find a few long sessions. Extended that out to a hundred million and there are three or four dice setters in your computer! Fantastic people with 40 minute sessions!

That being said I did run into a guy with a knack for rolling yo's (I am keen on observation) once at the Orleans. At the end of the day I was down to one green chip. He and I were the only two at the table. I made the $25 yo bet. 6 and 5 came up! Just having that feeling and really only my initial $25 to lose I told the stick stiff to parlay it. They accepted the bet. Again, 6 and 5! I colored in since the hand hadn't started, tipped the table $100 and the shooter the same and danced my way to my room. A dice setter, influencer or just lucky? I don't know. I still wonder. He was a very big man, over 300 lbs, all I remember. Perhaps someone knows of him. This would be 2011 or 2012. Never have seen him again.

 

Here is the problem. Forgetting for the moment all the other variables that cannot be controlled, this is not enough.

And if you were close enough to 'show a bias' to particular numbers, 7 (the number that con men selling books trackers and system claim you can reduce your chances of) would be the number LEAST likely to have its odds significantly varied.
They must toss it at the exact same speed on the exact same trajectory with the exact same rate of rotation on the exact same axis to the exact same spot.

 

Trying something is better than doing nothing is what I say. I've come to believe that you must be in the "present moment" when at the craps table. No matter who is shooting and who is not.

 

You're a smart man. I believe both are possible. I believe that Tiger was a great golfer, and he still is. But when he was in his prime I think that he believed that he could do things with a golf ball that others thought not possible. Now that he's lost his confidence he's mostly focused on improving the physical aspect of his game. But the physical aspect isn't what's lacking, it's his knowing that he can make that ball do exactly what he wants it to do.

I live my life sticking with the logical side of things, that said, I do believe that a person can have influence over physical things by using their mind. I also believe firmly that some can "sense" the future.

 

If dice influencing is possible, even with 7s being just as likely it is still a huge moneymaker. I assume the premise to be that you can make one or both of the dice be influenced. If you can for example make one or both dice be significantly more likely to be a 4-6 rather than 1-3 you have a huge advantage in that you could over the long term have an advantage over the house on bets like placing 8,9,10, betting the 11,12, field, all tall, laying the 4,5,6, etc.

 

Right, but you can't.

And the people trying to sell you systems and lessons and trackers claiming that you can tend to focus on (and have jargon for) how often you roll the 7. And the reason for that is simple. It is the outcome that people most easily understand how to profit off of, and its easy to trick people experiencing simple variance into thinking their 'method' is reducing 7s.

And for the record, if you really can influence both dice to be higher or lower, that will move the 7 grudgingly. It will just move the others more.

 

no the idea is to keep the dice together and spinning on the same horizontal axis in unison
( not one 180 deg out of sync) so as to avoid a 7 as best as possible
and get any point number..the idea of controlling only one dice makes no sense to me (how only one?)

so the dice set, throwing angle, grip and velocity/energy before hitting the wall before coming to rest are the main variables
table/felt condition and shortest distance from the wall are easier to choose as a setter

just going from a 7 out for every 6.134 throws to every 8 negates the house edge, IF you can consistently do it 90% of the time

 

Right, a person can't influence the dice. A golfer also can't change a 30 yard chip. The ball is going to land and roll the same way everytime.

 

If you need to bounce that chip against felt covered wood and then into a wall covered with tiny pyramids, and the goal is not to get it in the hole, but instead to have it finish with the blue dot you put above the logo facing directly up, then yeah, you can't influence it.

 

i have seen videos of the flip method where the shooter after years of practice throws the dice off the back wall without the spinning the dices and bounce once of the back wall and land on the optimal number a large percent of the time, enough to influence the bets, have seen several try this and not consistent enough. So yes it is possible, years of practice and may equate to small percent increase advantage.