Vegas up; gambling down

Wonder why you don't see better pay tables, BJ rules, craps free odds in the newer or remodeled places. Well, folks aren't coming to gamble so much anymore.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/01/u...?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20130801&_r=0

A lot of money is staying in Asia now, Macau has 5x the gambling revenue that Vegas does now. Most of that money was brought to Vegas before.

Just stayed in Vegas over the weekend. Played a few hundred through the slots, nothing for Vegas, but everyone I talked to had the same experience. Feed money to a machine and it just drains it down without paying anything at all. I think most people would rather spend that money on food, drinks and shows.

Thanks for the link Dewey; that was an interesting article, though it didn't mention how lower pay tables, tighter slots, 6:5, higher minimums, less generous comps, etc. might be contributing to the decline in gambling revenues. The emphasis over the past several years has obviously been toward attracting everyone BUT serious gamblers - not necessarily the whales, but the smaller fish who cumulatively must add up to something significant. So now they have more shoppers, clubbers, diners, etc. and fewer gamblers. Sure, there are more gambling venues than ever before, but why not make Vegas the undisputed best bet? As in "Field of Dreams," if you build it they will come.

Congratulations Vegas, you got what you wanted!

Vegas has found other ways to make money. The profits from the clubs is astounding. Why try and coax someone into gambling for hours on end to get their money when you can sell them a thousand dollar bottle of vodka with a 900% mark up

I have felt this is true for a number of years now. They market to nongamblers. They worsen the odds, which gives the player less $$$ to cycle through, toughen up the comps, anger the gamblers. They anger the gamblers which turns them off from coming to Vegas and gambling...total downward cycle. Being from the east coast if I wanted high end dining, clubs and shows I would go to NY or Miami...I want to gamble so I go to LV. The hotel/casinos want the best of both worlds.

Thanks for the link Dewey. Interesting read and I agree with all the previous posts.

Tammy58 said:

I have felt this is true for a number of years now. They market to nongamblers. They worsen the odds, which gives the player less $$$ to cycle through, toughen up the comps, anger the gamblers. They anger the gamblers which turns them off from coming to Vegas and gambling...total downward cycle. Being from the east coast if I wanted high end dining, clubs and shows I would go to NY or Miami...I want to gamble so I go to LV. The hotel/casinos want the best of both worlds.

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So true. If I look back to the 3 trips to Vegas this past year I would say we spent far less on gambling. The majority of our play is on slots and in Vegas if your not dropping money in high limit rooms then your not winning anything worth while mentioning. We are pondering whether to go back this September or October and have been debating what would be the reason to do so and right now we see no reason.

p

Dewey,
Thanks for posting.
I read this article in the NY Times about an hour ago.
*
It affirms what we've all been discussing on this
board for several years, now.
*
I think my "Vegas Hiatus" may have arrived at
the right time.
Maybe, in a few years ( when my son is older )
and my wife + I return --
things in Vegas will have recycled back to treating
all gamblers better ?.......I hope.

The only reason I go is gambling. If that goes down or is not worth it anymore I may stop going.. I do not however play slots, I prefer the games with the smallest house edge such as craps and with no house edge such as Hold-Em. I can play poker where I live but casino craps games are few and far between outside of Vegas. As far as shows, dining and other entertainment, I can take it or leave it.

UKFanatic said:

Vegas has found other ways to make money. The profits from the clubs is astounding. Why try and coax someone into gambling for hours on end to get their money when you can sell them a thousand dollar bottle of vodka with a 900% mark up

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I'm a gambler. I'd rather spend my thousand dollars gambling than buying a thousand dollar bottle of vodka that I know costs under 50 dollars.

I see gambling as entertainment and a thousand dollars gets me a lot of fun play at a 5 dollar crap table.

To each their own, and I can see why Vegas is shifting toward clubs and bottle service. More money is made this way.

As a gambler it makes me sad, lol!

it seems that most of the commenters didn't even read the article. the headline of the article is deceiving, it's classic NY Times sensationalism. the bulk of the article is saying that people are spending less than they did back during the boom years. duh!

there's just one comment at the bottom of the first page about how revenue from gambling as a percentage is significantly lower than it was in 1984. ok, whatever that tells us.

without hard data, it's impossible to tell if gambling is really on the decline or the other activities have just increased. and as far as the reason pay tables and odds are getting worse, that has more to do with casinos pressing the envelope to increase revenue because they can get away with it. the common gambler is not educated enough to know the difference. I don't think it has anything to do with clubbing becoming more popular.

What were the hotel vacancy rates before the clubs got so popular? Were they the same as now and it was mainly people gambling back then?

another aspect of it............
How many clubbers does it take to match the revenue of the whales from Asia that are now a short flight from Macau?

shifter said:

it seems that most of the commenters didn't even read the article. the headline of the article is deceiving, it's classic NY Times sensationalism. the bulk of the article is saying that people are spending less than they did back during the boom years. duh!

there's just one comment at the bottom of the first page about how revenue from gambling as a percentage is significantly lower than it was in 1984. ok, whatever that tells us.

without hard data, it's impossible to tell if gambling is really on the decline or the other activities have just increased. and as far as the reason pay tables and odds are getting worse, that has more to do with casinos pressing the envelope to increase revenue because they can get away with it. the common gambler is not educated enough to know the difference. I don't think it has anything to do with clubbing becoming more popular.

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Not sure where you're getting any sensationalism or that they aren't pointing to any data to show gambling is on the decline. The article is titled "Crowds Return to Las Vegas, but Gamble Less". They point out that the number of visitors has returned to record levels but average gambling spend per visitor is down about 30% since 2007 (from $650 to $480), and they also overall spent about 20% less per visitor than they did in 2007. How's that sensationalism at all? Its a dry somber headline if anything.

With so many gaming facilities opening across the country, I could see why the average gambler is spending less per visit. If they are doing some of their gaming locally, they may also being tapping into their Las Vegas money, reducing their bankroll. Unless they have deep pockets, that drain shows up as less available cash when in town.

Electroguy563 said:

I'm a gambler. I'd rather spend my thousand dollars gambling than buying a thousand dollar bottle of vodka that I know costs under 50 dollars.

I see gambling as entertainment and a thousand dollars gets me a lot of fun play at a 5 dollar crap table.

To each their own, and I can see why Vegas is shifting toward clubs and bottle service. More money is made this way.

As a gambler it makes me sad, lol!

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I don't like it either. But I recall either reading some article about or hearing some interview a couple years ago where Steve Wynn basically said overpriced vodka is the fastest way to separate the customer from their money. In the end, we have to remember, that's all these resorts care about. They want your money. The only reason they want you to have fun is so you will come again and give them more of your money

KickinChicken said:

Not sure where you're getting any sensationalism or that they aren't pointing to any data to show gambling is on the decline. The article is titled "Crowds Return to Las Vegas, but Gamble Less". They point out that the number of visitors has returned to record levels but average gambling spend per visitor is down about 30% since 2007 (from $650 to $480), and they also overall spent about 20% less per visitor than they did in 2007. How's that sensationalism at all? Its a dry somber headline if anything.

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because they're not just gambling less, they're spending less across the board. and that was my main point - that all the comments were about how the clubs are taking over and that's why the gambling odds are getting worse, when the article was saying that spending across the board is down.

I would love to get more money on the felt. The problem is- if I bet the way I want to, they will back me off.

I lower my bet spread to try to stay under the radar.

Vegas isn't what it used to be since the corporations took over from the mob. They are afraid to take a bet. Its tough to get anything substantial down in any sports book not named Cantor.

bswim said:

another aspect of it............
How many clubbers does it take to match the revenue of the whales from Asia that are now a short flight from Macau?

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But if high limit room paytables/odds havent changed, wouldnt adding the clubs only bring more whales in for the entire experience? IMO if they're going to Nassau, its because they enjoy relaxing on an actual beach resort and gambling.

If Hawaii had casinos, I think more people would go there instead of Vegas as well.

While we perhaps we won't find it advertised to attract the folks who pay the light bills, let's keep in perspective that with a bit of looking we can still find some really great gambling in Vegas and some of it is new.

While Stations is reducing its full pay VP, Sam's Town has expanded the few full pay Deuces to a larger bank and included a dime (nickel with 10 max bet) in the mix.
Eastside Cannery has put in a new double bank of full pay VP and some of that is 9/6/90 JOB.

Downtown seems to keep certain good gambling deals. Four Queens still has 10/7 DB with a progressive and gives free rooms and freeplay so we can come and play it. MSS still offers full pay plus a scratch off.

I'm not up on the blackjack, but I read every so often of good games still around. I think that El Cortez still has a 3/2 single deck $5 game and a cheaper minimum sometimes on 2 deck games.
Freeplay craps odds continue to be a good deal in many places, even some with pass line bets as low as $3 so most of the bankroll can be dumped into freeplay (the best casino bet).

Poker depends perhaps more on the folks who attend to the games than on the rules (although CET has soured me of late with their $2 rakes and no high hand awards) Having a Vegas full of its-only-money players can be a real advantage in live poker.
I can't see playing much limit anymore at CET, but Golden Nugget, Sam's Town, Eastside Cannery(sometimes) have pretty interesting games with decent high hand awards.

Things pop up like that nickel single zero roulette at Four Queens that even earns points. It is a great slot. House edge is just $2.7, fairly amazing for what is essentially a nickel slot especially since you can know what the odds are rather than take a blind shot at tight or loose machines.
97% is rare in any slot, and very rare in a nickel game.

I can't find as many good gambles in other geographies. New York local spots are almost criminal. 8/5 JOB in Connecticut is pretty lame. And in Atlantic City you better have a map from VP Free if you want to find the few full pay scattered among hundreds of low pay. Florida's Ocala live poker is the only other place I've found better bonus awards.

I am not as sure as others on this thread or on the board in general that offering good gambles would attract enough players from the general population for volume to offset lower house edge. Out Boulder where most of the customers are local, it may attract; however, I have to tell you that I don't have to wait much to play there, except on quarter full pay Deuces at Sam's Town. That one gets filled up.
Sometimes I think because we all talk to each other here, we begin to think the general Vegas visitors are like us and looking for what we value. The article suggests they are not. But Vegas is rich in varieties of attractions, including still some good gambling.