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Table Games Wynn talks effect of switching to double odds, one year later

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by hail2skins, Jul 29, 2016.

  1. hail2skins

    hail2skins Low-Roller

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  2. bedaniels

    bedaniels Low-Roller

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    And that's why I don't play craps or any other game at Wynn. The properties are nice, very high end but just like 6:5 BJ at MGM the odds suck, this is where Vegas is headed until gaming demand tanks along with demand for clubs (bottle service)/restaurants/shows. Vegas needs to return to 2008/2009 comps and gaming conditions to find value.
     
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  3. MrBBonz

    MrBBonz Low-Roller

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    6:5 will never go away, and soon it will be a pretty normal thing for low -mid level gambling. With 1:1 being for micro games and 3:2 being reserved for the higher end. To many people who visit vegas don't care about rule changes that hurt the odds, they either are there for the sake of being there. That is to say, hey, I playing BJ/craps in vegas! Or their skill level is so low that it wouldn't matter what the rules are anyways. Luckily though, casinos off the strip still have good rules on their games and I would expect them to keep those as a selling point vs strip places. And like I said you could offer 3:1 on BJ and the house would still make money vs average tourist.
     
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  4. jrdmacdo

    jrdmacdo Tourist

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    So true, MrB. Looking through the gaming stats yesterday, I was shocked to see that the house take on blackjack is actually higher than for penny slots. Blackjacks at 6:5 contribute to that, but the majority of that profit is built around bad play. If anything, the use of 6:5 is a better magnet for the ill-informed players that will drive up the house take. That's why 6:5 is not going anywhere.
     
  5. kmarcin

    kmarcin Tourist

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    Are these gaming stats publicly available? If so, then where can they be found? I'd like to see what is there.
     
  6. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    I don't think it's because of bad play, unless you consider under-bankrolling bad play, it's because of variance.

    Slots return close to their theoretical win. Table games return way more than the house edge because the variance is much higher, people take way more risk, and bust out faster. I would agree that 6:5 probably boosts the house win on BJ by roughly the same ratio that a 6:5 payout is worse than a 3:2, and probably a little more, because people are gonna bust out faster at 6:5 than 3:2.

    And if you think big or sophisticated players do better, note that Steve has said he expects a baccarat win in the low-mid 20s as a normalized number (he had a quarter where it was 18% and said that was horrible) - compare that to the 11% - 13% shown below.

    Here's the stats for the 22-23 largest Strip casinos for the full year 2015 vs 2009, which I think was before 6:5:

    2015 v 2009 Strip Win Stats.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2016
  7. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    http://gaming.nv.gov/index.aspx?page=149

    Actually one thing that stand out to me in that screenshot above is the huge reduction in the number of slots from 2009 to 2015.
     
  8. TIMSPEED

    TIMSPEED !địt mẹ!

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    Wow...PGP hold went from 13% to 20%...
     
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  9. Ty

    Ty ?

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    I'm having a bit of trouble defining "WIN PERCENTAGE". Wouldn't a larger number be better for the gambler?

    "The ""Win Percent"" for slot devices provides a ratio which represents the reported win amount divided by the total dollar amount played by patrons."

    Edit to add source of quote.
    From Introduction paragraph,
    http://gaming.nv.gov/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=10810
     
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  10. bigalbr

    bigalbr VIP Whale

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    I'm pretty sure the win percentage is the casino win percentage or hold.
     
  11. HuskerBB

    HuskerBB Low-Roller

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    For the table games I am pretty sure that "win percentage" is the "hold". Which is the difference between the chips bought at the table and the chips the players take away from the table. That is very different from the numbers you are getting from the slot which would be based on coin-in win percentage. For the slots that number would be reflective of the house advantage built into the game. For tables - the hold is very different than the house advantage built into each hand of the game. To get that you would need to divide the hold into the total number of dollars bet on hands during that period of time.
     
  12. flamingogo

    flamingogo Tourist

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    Wow, I'd never thought of it that way, but you're right about the 3:1. I play perfect basic strategy (not trying to boast; i'm an advantage player) and have played with thousands of people, and i have never seen even one other player who plays perfect BS. So you're right, the casino advantage for 99.999% of BJ players is higher (and in many cases, MUCH higher) than the off-the-bat half-percent house advantage.
     
  13. Letter_E

    Letter_E Low-Roller

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    I'm assuming the big jump in PGP hold has to do with everyone having the Dragon Bonus bet nowadays. It wasn't that available back in '09, but now it's rare to find a table that doesn't have it.
     
  14. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    Right. If table game holds were calculated like slot machine holds, then 3:2 BJ probably would be 2% hold or less. Depends on the severity of table errors of course.
     
  15. C0usineddie

    C0usineddie VIP Whale

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    So a .05 cent slot pays out the same rate as a $5 one? interesting.
     
  16. thecarve

    thecarve Misanthrope

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    Not sure I agree with your math...
     
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  17. vegasvic

    vegasvic VIP Whale

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    The table holds on 3:2 blackjack are way more than 2%. Obviously if everyone played perfect basic strategy the 2% number would be a reasonable assumption. But most don't play anywhere near perfect BS, in fact most are just bad players regardless of the amount they are betting. A friend of mine was the casino manager at one of the strip properties in the early 90's. He'd always chuckle when talking about how "dumb" most gamblers are. Basic strategy is easy to learn but most would rather piss away extra money than spend a few minutes learning it.
     
  18. tex55

    tex55 Low-Roller

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    I won't play craps at Wynn/Encore because of the limited odds feature. I am very glad (and surprised) that other casinos haven't followed suit.
     
  19. vegasvic

    vegasvic VIP Whale

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    I was surprised to find double odds downtown. $5 craps ($3 sometimes at the Fremont) is great but not double odds :(