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Video Poker Wired article on Video Poker Glitch

Discussion in 'Video Poker' started by wanker751, Oct 7, 2014.

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  1. wanker751

    wanker751 Dutch Rudder Enthusiast

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    http://www.wired.com/2014/10/cheating-video-poker/

    First off hello, long time lurker, first time poster. I hope I put this in the correct forum.

    Few thoughts on this, I am glad these two are not in prison as I do not feel they "cheated" in the true sense of the word, well in away. I mean they did not manipulate the software themselves.

    I suppose I do not have with the casino asking for the cash back (I really really want to) but to me this falls under the umbrella of malfunction voids all pays.

    I question how Nestor can owe back taxes on $ that was technically not his because the casino took it back, though it may not be everything in total he won.

    Either way it is a fascinating read and speaks to the greed of people have, you have to know the casinos would be smart enough eventually to find out something is wrong, classic case of quit while you are ahead!
     
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  2. woodsie

    woodsie High-Roller

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    Yeah, that guy is nuts. He banged up one slot for 8 jackpots in one sitting. That's pretty much begging to get caught.
     
  3. Ty

    Ty ?

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    Exactly. Greed got him.
     
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  4. Ty

    Ty ?

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    Christmas Trip. Sam's Town & MSS
  5. wanker751

    wanker751 Dutch Rudder Enthusiast

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    That is what I was thinking. Space it out by dates and spread out out among different casinos....

    Love the cops busting in with ARs and a battering ram, seemed to me like a lot of overkill there...
     
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  6. boxofbirds

    boxofbirds High-Roller

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    Police? Overkill? Never....

    But seriously this is a great read. This is the problem with any advantage play, someone hits it too hard and it gets ruined for everyone else!
     
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  7. undathesea

    undathesea Grandissimo

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    I'm not sure this was technically a malfunction. But, that's an interesting thought that I hadn't considered before. Was the software operating as it was programmed to do even though the programmer hadn't intended it to work that way? You could probably look at it from either side when considering that.

    It said in the article that there was no record of the money being confiscated or handed back to the Meadows. So, the IRS still wants their share of the proceeds for the win.

    I'm glad they put together an updated article on this. I believe it was Wired that wrote the original article about this while the outcome of the legal battle hadn't yet been settled. Much more detail in this article.

    Thanks for the post.
     
  8. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    What they were doing is past posting. It's no different than betting $1 on a number at roulette, having it hit, and then slipping a $100 chip under it when the dealer isn't looking.
     
  9. wanker751

    wanker751 Dutch Rudder Enthusiast

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    I missed that part about the proof, then it makes sense.
     
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  10. wanker751

    wanker751 Dutch Rudder Enthusiast

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    That is a good point, I did not look at it that way at all, since it was a technical issue, but I guess it is kind of like E-past posting...
     
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  11. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    Agreed. If the prosecution formed their case around the appropriate NV state laws, this story could have turned out very differently.
     
  12. undathesea

    undathesea Grandissimo

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    Definitely not past posting. Past posting is not allowed and illegal. The software allowed them to do what they did and it was not illegal. The software represents the dealer, pit boss, and casino. They all allowed the two to do what they did. That's not the case with past posting at all.
     
  13. merlin

    merlin VIP Whale

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    Obviously they committed no crime, they were very stupid and greedy however, you would think they could have won 1 jackpot a day , spread it all over the country and never been caught. i t reminds me of the guy who made uis own casino tokens and got so greedy he produced more than the casino ever had($25 ones too), greed kills.
     
  14. Kickin

    Kickin Flea

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    There was a long thread about this a year or so ago. I was glad that the federal hacking charges ended up getting dropped when the judge forced them to try to justify those charges and they realized they couldn't. I liked the defense attorney's argument about what constitutes "authorized access" when dealing with a computer program. I think that is an important precedent going forward, otherwise anyone can call you a cheat simply for being smarter than they were in figuring out how their software works. But mostly I'm glad because I can't stand the egregious interpretation of laws the state tried to use to press unwarranted charges. The fact that the cops busted in with full combat gear to arrest a video poker "cheat" just goes to show how ridiculous their use of power can get.
     
  15. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    Are you sure? http://leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-465.html

    NRS 465.070  Fraudulent acts.  It is unlawful for any person:
    1.  To alter or misrepresent the outcome of a game or other event on which wagers have been made after the outcome is made sure but before it is revealed to the players.
    2.  To place, increase or decrease a bet or to determine the course of play after acquiring knowledge, not available to all players, of the outcome of the game or any event that affects the outcome of the game or which is the subject of the bet or to aid anyone in acquiring such knowledge for the purpose of placing, increasing or decreasing a bet or determining the course of play contingent upon that event or outcome.
    3.  To claim, collect or take, or attempt to claim, collect or take, money or anything of value in or from a gambling game, with intent to defraud, without having made a wager contingent thereon, or to claim, collect or take an amount greater than the amount won.
    4.  Knowingly to entice or induce another to go to any place where a gambling game is being conducted or operated in violation of the provisions of this chapter, with the intent that the other person play or participate in that gambling game.
    5.  To place or increase a bet after acquiring knowledge of the outcome of the game or other event which is the subject of the bet, including past-posting and pressing bets.
    6.  To reduce the amount wagered or cancel the bet after acquiring knowledge of the outcome of the game or other event which is the subject of the bet, including pinching bets.

    7.  To manipulate, with the intent to cheat, any component of a gaming device in a manner contrary to the designed and normal operational purpose for the component, including, but not limited to, varying the pull of the handle of a slot machine, with knowledge that the manipulation affects the outcome of the game or with knowledge of any event that affects the outcome of the game.


    What the machine was doing is definitely contrary to the designed and normal operational purpose of the game.

    I think the government prosecuted them over the wrong laws. That being said, I'm alright with their poor prosecution since I like a good "beat the casino" story.
     
  16. undathesea

    undathesea Grandissimo

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    In my opinion, those laws don't apply. You can't tell me that the prosecutor didn't think to look at cheating laws and not charge them with cheating if they thought charging them as such would stick. The prosecutors would have looked at cheating laws first and charged them accordingly. Obviously, because they didn't do that because they didn't believe those laws had any merit to the case.

    Normal operational purpose means that the machine was without malfunction. In other words, our heroes hadn't manipulated the machine in some manner and operated it in a manner in which it was not designed to operate for the purposes of cheating the machine.

    Anyways, we're splitting hairs since we're both glad they didn't go to jail. In my opinion, the liability for the money won and paid should be on IGT. They should have repaid the casino and not the two heroes.
     
  17. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    The Nevada guy got charged with suspicion of theft and released but was still under investigation. A couple of months go by. The Penn. guy got charged with 689 felonies. Then the Feds swiped the case and turned it into a wire fraud case under a hacking umbrella because hacking is a sexy charge. The hacking charge was a huge stretch.

    Now, why the states couldn't/didn't still charge them after the hacking charges were dropped, I dunno, but it certainly wasn't because they had no case. What they did was exactly what is stated in item 5 of the Nevada law.

    5.  To place or increase a bet after acquiring knowledge of the outcome of the game or other event which is the subject of the bet, including past-posting and pressing bets.

    They were playing quarter or fifty cent or $1 VP, waiting for a winning hand, and then increasing the bet to $2 or $5. How is that not past posting, or how is the casino "allowing" it because they got away with it a bunch of times before they got caught?

    http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/crime-courts/two-men-charged-slot-plot?ref=314
     
  18. undathesea

    undathesea Grandissimo

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    The past posting is a really interesting and seemingly viable argument. Unfortunately, since they didn't describe in detail how the glitch worked, it's hard to say whether or not it was past posting. They said in one part of the article that he "replayed the same hand" and "hit the cash out button and watched as his $500 payout became a $10k jackpot."

    Maybe the hand was replayed by the machine at the new domination therefore not making it past posting? Hard to tell without all of the information.

    I doubt they'll give away all the details... but whatever happened... the state surely didn't feel like they could charge them with cheating.
     
  19. dankyone

    dankyone VIP Whale

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    I agree with this--if they were just willing to take one jackpot a day and willing to travel, they would probably still be bringing in several thousand a day, and no one the wiser. I wonder if any smarter/savvier teams also exploited this without getting caught. I bet they did.
     
  20. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    I'm starting to think you didn't even read the article.


    The states did charge them.

    OK, that's enough, I'm done, lol. I want you on the jury if I ever get charged with anything though.
     
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