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Table Games Why no face down doubling in blackjack at some casinos?

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by Llew, Jan 12, 2013.

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  1. Llew

    Llew Low-Roller

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    Sometimes I like to have the double down card placed face down for the added suspense. But some casinos (MGM Grand, for instance) don't allow it. Any idea why?
     
  2. blackjacker2

    blackjacker2 Low-Roller

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    Hi Llew

    I like doing this too, but some players really dislike it and if they are sitting at a seat to your left and counting cards then it will put them at a disadvantage as they will not have seen the card you have requested face down. It's slightly less controversial if you are sitting at third base, but I have come to the conclusion that casinos stop you doing it to avoid any trouble.

    I don't have any insight into the exact MGM policy, but all you can do is ask, no harm in that. If you find casino that lets you do it, then play there!

    Here in the UK, it is not common practice so I rarely ask for it.
     
  3. raspus

    raspus Tourist

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    I know that you can do this at the Mirage. I've never had a problem asking for the double down card to be dealt face down. This was at $25 tables.
     
  4. dfalk

    dfalk VIP Whale

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    I think everywhere I've played they automatically place it face down, which I like as well, adds a little suspense because you get to see what the dealer gets first.
     
  5. Terry Benedict

    Terry Benedict VIP Whale

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    Most places I play at deal it face up. I like doing it when I'm winning. It's even fun to suggest it to new players who are winning. The suspense is fun. (When I'm winning.)
     
  6. bubbakitty

    bubbakitty native Texan; born and bred.

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    It is interesting when the dealer chooses to put the card face down but holds it up for you to see as she / he places it down on the table so you can see prior to completion of the hand......it is your choice to look away and yes, it is usually when there is a winning streak taking place.....
     
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  7. Llew

    Llew Low-Roller

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    Yes, I've never had a problem with it at Mirage, so it's obviously not some kind of corporate rule. It varies by individual casino. At the Luxor, they had no problem with it (at least in the high limit), but the dealer made some comment about surveillance wondering what I was doing when I switched back and forth depending on my mood. At the Encore they did not care.
     
  8. DonD

    DonD Super Moderator

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    I've had many, many dealers ask me if I wanted to see it or not. I always choose not to see it. That seems to have been lucky for me about 50% of the time.
     
  9. DuckyD77090

    DuckyD77090 Tourist

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    No it doesn't. A card removed from the deck face down does nothing to the count. It doesn't increase it, doesn't decrease it. It's a non-event - just like the card that some casinos burn face down when a new dealer arrives mid-shoe.
     
  10. MikeOPensacola

    MikeOPensacola VIP Whale

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    Ditto what Ducky said........
     
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  11. Bo333

    Bo333 VIP Whale

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    Strange, I had a dealer at the MGM Grand that kept doing it to me face down.
    Was driving me nuts!
     
  12. Kickin

    Kickin Flea

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    No, blackjacker is right. You're saying something different. He's saying it puts a counter at a disadvantage and that's true. The face down cards are out of the shoe, the most accurate count of the shoe implies being able to count every card out of the shoe. It won't change anything for the counter's bet since its already out there but can effect any deviation from basic strategy based on the count the counter might employ. The same goes for the burn card, counters prefer to see the burn card to add it into their count, its not a non-event. If it was then that would mean the composition of the shoe is a non-event which its not. Anything that effects the composition of the remaining shoe IS an event.

    That being said, I like getting my doubles face down as well. It just more fun.
     
  13. blackjacker2

    blackjacker2 Low-Roller

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    It's an interesting debate on the face down issue and the impact if anyone is counting. I respect other people have a particular viewpoint, I was just giving my understanding to illustrate why a casino might say no to a face down card. KickinChicken has summed up well what I was thinking of.
    Forget the math, it's just fun having it face down and especially seeing the dealer bust, knowing you don't care what value the card is!
     
  14. ChickenBone Jones

    ChickenBone Jones Low-Roller

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    I think it is funny when the dealer shows the card to other people at the table before putting it face down. It provides a great opportunity to bust chops.
     
  15. nostresshere

    nostresshere Mr. Anti Debit Card

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    I would have to agree AND disagree.

    I agree that at the moment it is a non event. Not good or bad if you can not see it.

    But, if you were able to SEE that card, than your amount of information about the deck would increase. And the count would either go up or down, or even stay the same. And you may adjust your play based on your count.

    EVERY card has a count value. Sadly, you can only COUNT those that you have seen.

    To say that card has no value is the same as if you did not count one of the face up cards already on the table. Every card has a value.
     
  16. blackjacker2

    blackjacker2 Low-Roller

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    No wonder blackjack books sell so well. Even celebrated authors disagree with each other!
     
  17. DuckyD77090

    DuckyD77090 Tourist

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    Nostresshere, you contradict yourself. First:

    And then...

    A card, face down, has a null value to the count. It is not to modify the count, nor is it to modify the number of cards seen - you're supposed to net out the total unseen cards from the discarded shoe. In practice, it is exceedingly rare that the number of burn/unseen cards makes up a significant percentage of the discarded shoe.

    Every card does have a value, but only once seen.
     
  18. WrongWayWade

    WrongWayWade VIP Whale

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    I'm unsure where you are going with this. The ONLY thing that changes the count is cards removed from the deck, up or down. There is a small possibility that if I get to see the player to my right's double-down card it would change the count enough so I would play my hand differently, (example: stand instead of hit 16vT), but it is possible. Of course, the vast majority of the edge gained by counting is in betting levels (not play deviation), and I've already made my bet at that point.

    All the cards exposed, either when dealt or after being revealed after a down double-down get counted; every card matters. If they deal the double-downs face down I need to count that card when it later gets revealed.

    The burn card can just be considered to be behind the cut-card because we never see it, so that one is a non-event, just like all the cards that don't get dealt before the next shuffle. The double-downs are different because we DO get to see them.
     
  19. numeno

    numeno VIP Whale

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    There is a 0% chance this rule is in place due to counters. A few people have already pointed out that if anything it helps the counters if you force all cards be dealt face up.


    I would expect there to be a corporate rule in MGM. It simply depends if the pit boss enforces it or not. The reason I have always been given in casinos that don't allow this is that "it is a face up game, therefore cards are dealt face up". Like with many rules, there most likely isn't a logical reason. My best guess is that at some point someone created the rule for some form of game protection. The card is face down, therefore it would be possible for someone to switch the card. If it is face up, then the camera sees the card at all times.



    Vegas seems very loose with this rule. Other casinos around the country are very strict. This is one of those rules that makes little sense, but was in some rule book so people follow it.
     
  20. ams722

    ams722 Side Bet Shunner

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    I don't think it's a MGM corporate-wide rule. I know I've seen it done at Monte Carlo, for instance.

    Maybe it's just an insecure dealer or something?
     
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