1. Welcome to VegasMessageBoard
    It appears you are visiting our community as a guest.
    In order to view full-size images, participate in discussions, vote in polls, etc, you will need to Log in or Register.

Table Games Why hasn't casino mgmt changed craps rules/payouts

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by mjamesp, Aug 13, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. mjamesp

    mjamesp High-Roller

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2009
    Messages:
    644
    Location:
    Minneapolis
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    20
    I'm looking for thoughts on why the casinos haven't changed the payouts at the craps tables? They've made BJ and VP less attractive for players. I assume the slots take more than they used to.

    It seems to me that other than 2 & 12 on the field bet they really haven't changed the game. I don't play roulette, may be the same can be said for that game other than single zero and double zero wheels.

    I'm surprised they haven't messed with the craps payouts. The house edge can be kept pretty low by focusing on certain bets.
     
  2. BrendanMc

    BrendanMc Tourist

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2012
    Messages:
    94
    Location:
    Scottsdale, AZ
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    13
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it...

    The casinos must be making enough money from craps to not warrant any changes. While there are people who know how to minimize the house advantage, the majority of players just don't fully understand the game and get pulled into sucker bets.
     
  3. Hogman

    Hogman VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Messages:
    1,113
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    70
    They have changed the payout on the center bets over the years.
    If they change the odds % and place bet payouts, It would be a good reason for me to stop gambling.
     
    First Trip 2017
  4. Auggie

    Auggie Dovahkiin

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2009
    Messages:
    5,749
    Location:
    Burnaby, BC
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    14
    The casinos probably would have made changes to craps over the years... but there really isn't much they can change.

    Like how you mentioned video poker: changing from 9/6 JoB to 8/5 JoB.

    In that case such a change only increases the house edge by 2%, not that big a change overall

    But if they change the JoB VP paytable where two pair only pays 1, instead of paying 2, then the house edge would increase by almost 13%... or if they changed three of a kind from paying 3 to paying only 2 that would increase the house edge by 7.4%

    When the casino does make changes to a game the end result they want is to only increase the house edge by maybe 1-2%

    Now the other key here is: when they make a change it has to be to something that will come up from regularly, but not all the time. Such is the case with blackjack or with VP why they changed the full house and flush numbers and not what the royal flush pays out...

    In the case of blackjack you are expected only to hit about 3-4 blackjacks an hour, in the case of video poker you can expect to make a full house or flush about once each for every 100 hands dealt.

    So going back to craps...

    They can't change any of the fundamental bets like PASS or DON'T PASS or buy/place because doing so would cause a massive increase in the house edge. Like if your pass line bet only paid $4 for every $5 wagered that would increase the house edge by 21%

    Then the bets that people do make from time to time, like the hard ways, already have a pretty high house edge so they can't really change them.

    So all that really leaves are the proposition bets which also already have a high house edge but there is still some room to increase the edge by a small amount... but it goes back to the problem where changes have to be made to regularly occurring outcomes (IE: the full house or flush in video poker or the blackjack in blackjack) and these are just not wagered enough where increasing the house edge 1-3% on these specific bets is going to have a long term trackable increase in the table's hold, plus they have the issue where smart players can just avoid these bets (you can't avoid blackjacks or flushes or full houses by comparison unless you make stupid plays like being dealt a full house and never holding the two of a kind, as an example).
     
  5. thecarve

    thecarve Misanthrope

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2009
    Messages:
    4,388
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    49
    I'd imagine it has something to do with the fact that so many craps players (even ones who know the HA) love the sucker bets.
     
    Number 50!
  6. Pinny Long

    Pinny Long High-Roller

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2009
    Messages:
    1,824
    Location:
    Vegas
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    50
    I've seen fluctuation on the hardways payoff, especially overseas.
     
  7. SH0CK

    SH0CK Stylin' and Profilin' Quasi Tech Admin

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2001
    Messages:
    12,936
    Location:
    Tennessee
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    37
    Anytime you see on layout that some prop bet payouts are "X FOR 1" instead of "X TO 1", that is where they have made a change.

    Example:
    5 FOR 1 means you get $5 on a $1 bet.
    5 TO 1 means you get $6 on a $1 bet ($5 + your original $1 bet)
     
  8. 777

    777 Tourist

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2012
    Messages:
    39
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    5
    It will eventually... In my area, 2 and 12 are paid double instead of triple. Hard way payouts in some casinos are different too. BJ was the first one got ripped because the house edge was so low.
     
  9. metalpest

    metalpest Low-Roller

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2007
    Messages:
    184
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    12
    I believe BJ was changed to counter card counters and VP odds lowered due to advantage players. No way to win at craps like the other two games so no need to lower odds to prevent it.
     
  10. blackjacknut

    blackjacknut VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2008
    Messages:
    3,380
    Location:
    Northeast Ohio
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    52
    Shhhhh......don't give them any ideas....:wink2:
     
  11. bronx12

    bronx12 Low-Roller

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2003
    Messages:
    262
    Location:
    WI
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    25
    Fire bet anyone?
     
  12. Royal Flusher

    Royal Flusher Savvy Gambler

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2008
    Messages:
    5,521
    Location:
    Flusherville, Canada
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    57
    At one time the 12 on the field paid different between downtown and the strip. Downtown 3:1, Strip 2:1, anyone know if that is still true?
     
  13. Ross11988

    Ross11988 Low-Roller

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    Messages:
    111
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    2
    Last time I played at TI on a 10minthe field payed triple . That was a year ago
     
  14. mjamesp

    mjamesp High-Roller

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2009
    Messages:
    644
    Location:
    Minneapolis
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    20
    I'll let you know what I find downtown this weekend.
     
  15. m1k2s3

    m1k2s3 Tourist

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2011
    Messages:
    23
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    30
    I suspect the casinos make a lot of money on their craps tables so as the saying goes "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

    The table minimums have gone up and some of the odds have lowered so I guess..... all I know is sometimes I win, sometimes I lose and both seem to happen in the blink of an eye!:confused2:
     
  16. shifter

    shifter Degenerate Gambler

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2010
    Messages:
    10,096
    Location:
    At the tables
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    30
    but they haven't really changed these in most cases, they're just wording it differently so you think you get more. ties at Bacc used to read 8 to 1 everywhere and now lots of places display them as 9 for 1. same difference, just makes you think you're getting more if you don't know any better.
     
  17. thecarve

    thecarve Misanthrope

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2009
    Messages:
    4,388
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    49
    For many of the prop bets on the craps table - particularily at CET casinos - they have changed the payouts, not just the language.
     
    Number 50!
  18. Ben Jammin

    Ben Jammin VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2008
    Messages:
    1,145
    Location:
    Cali
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    120
    Absolutely the payback changed from 30 to 1 to 30 for one.

    Used to be you'd get your original bet back plus your winnings.

    Now, they pay you 30 for one, they keep the one. It changes the already bad house percentage (advantage) but look at it this way. Those players are going to make those bets anyway and that's where the casino makes it's money.

    If everyone on a Craps Table only played the pass/don't pass line with odds the casino wouldn't make nearly enough profit to justify paying a Craps crew consisting of a stick man, two dealers and a box man not to mention the pit boss that has to oversee half a dozen games or more.

    You bet they make money on a crowded Craps game, hand over fist. If they could have figured another way to slant the odds in their favor they would have done it by now.

    They had better leave the Sacred Cow alone!
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2012
  19. jhpa

    jhpa High-Roller

    Joined:
    May 25, 2010
    Messages:
    678
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    8
    There are probably more variations than you realize

    Crapsless craps
    Fire Bet
    All/small/tall
    x to 1 vs x for 1
    Double 2/12 on the field; triple 2/12 on field
    Pay the vig on the buy bet before the win vs after win
    2x/3x/4x odds, vs 5x vs 10x vs 100x
    Hop bets vs no hops bets

    Of course, the basic payouts are established for good reason....including ease of payout. They are not likely to change.
     
  20. Nittany1

    Nittany1 VIP Whale

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2009
    Messages:
    1,821
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    81
    Penn National's Hollywood casino in Pa.where I live changed the commission on buying the 4 and 10 to $1 for a $20 buy instead of $1 for 25.
    It did not last long and they are back to $1.00 for every $25 purchase.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.