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Table Games What Is A AP Roulette Player?

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by DOUBLE B, Jan 14, 2013.

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  1. DOUBLE B

    DOUBLE B Tourist

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    I read somewhere about Advantage Players playing roulette. I understand AP players and VP. What about roulette players as AP players.
     
  2. WrongWayWade

    WrongWayWade VIP Whale

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    AP Roulette players are delusional.

    But seriously, there have been a few cases of players (teams, usually) seeking out and 'clocking' out-of-balance roulette wheels that will tend to have the ball land in some sectors a bit more than others. But there is a vast amount of data to collect, and modern casinos are far better today at keeping their equipment in shape and not suspect to this kind of play. There were some other cases of players using lasers and other electronics to clock the spin of the wheel and ball, but use of any device like this is completely illegal and will get you throw in jail. AP <> Cheating.

    Anyone telling you that just by recording past results and looking for patterns can give you an advantage is just fooling himself.

    One of the main reasons Roulette is a bad game to try to seek out some advantage play is that the initial house advantage is so high it is nearly impossible to overcome it with any method.
     
  3. elrohir44

    elrohir44 Low-Roller

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    What is an AP roulette player? It's kind of like a unicorn, but much more depressing to look at. Anyone else is a cheater.
     
  4. y2mulder

    y2mulder Low-Roller

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    THIS ^^^^^

    Maybe you can go to a single 0 wheel, and martingale it to the moon with a good bankroll, but there is no way to ever mathematically have a house edge.
     
  5. Groog

    Groog Low-Roller

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    I know I'm going to get the hammer dropped on me, but that's o.k. I know better.

    The ignorance about roulette is incredible. People think that because it has a high house edge it's unbeatable. They are all wrong. Get a wheel and see for yourself.

    I don't know if this is what you heard or even know, but if you truely want an advantage in roulette, you need a to know a dealer and have them spin in your favor. It's quite easy to control where the ball lands. not saying individual numbers, but sections - no doubt.

    Last year I was at a table all by myself and was talking to the female dealer and asked if she could control the ball and she said generally she can put it in an area. I asked her to hit a number and I put $10 on it, not thinking she could. She hit it in one spin. I was still skeptical so I asked her to keep doing it. In the course of 5 spins she hit direct neighbors as well as just outside of neighbors. Someone else came up and the pit boss came around and she stopped chatting.

    I ended up buying a wheel and testing it myself. If you get in a rhythm you can hit zones for quite a few spins.

    Just for info gathering, anybody who is a hater, go to a roulette wheel and when the dealer spins, count the number of times the ball spins before it drops. Post it here - count at least 5-10 and post the numbers then we can compare.
     
  6. mike_m235

    mike_m235 Tourist

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    I think people said you can't AP roulette. They didn't say it couldn't be cheated.
     
  7. elrohir44

    elrohir44 Low-Roller

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    Nobody is saying the game can't be manipulated (cheated). There is no legal way to gain an advantage at roulette. By extension of your logic, past-posting by distracting the dealer is AP play.
     
  8. Royal Flusher

    Royal Flusher Savvy Gambler

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    Yes. They call these AP roulette players "The House."
     
  9. numeno

    numeno VIP Whale

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    WrongWayWade mentioned the one exception. Uneven wheels can give an advantage. Good luck with anyone trying it though due to the number of spins you need to observe to know you have a wheel you can deal with.
     
  10. BeeeJay

    BeeeJay President of The Red Lobster Hostess Satisfaction

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    I find the entire term "advantage player" to be a misnomer.

    Once you are putting in effort to make money you are by definition "working". And more than likely if you are doing it in gambling you are working for less than minimum wage.

    Nothing against the Bob Dancer's of the world, but my opinion is that anyone skilled enough to make money gambling could be making exponentially more doing something else.

    I have often caught myself over-working on my "vacation" planning in an attempt to reduce the house advantage and thus the cost of my trip. It usually ends up as an epic fail for me. But I could see where the game is enjoyable for some.

    An advantage roulette player is one who walks past the tables.
     
  11. The Equalizer

    The Equalizer Low-Roller

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    The truth is the only game in a casino that can be beat long term for any real money is poker. Yes blackjack counters can gain a small advantage but the casino will catch on fairly quickly when a large sum of money is changing hands . Video poker in the right situations can be beat long term with huge variance but its not likely to be money that you can live on without a very large bankroll and extreme discipline. Poker on the other hand can be extremely profitable to the players that are best able to exploit the weakness of other players but the casino loses nothing so your not beating them and they dont care.
     
  12. danfed

    danfed Tourist

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    I have a friend who was a pit boss at a large Strip casino. He would periodically tell me stories about cheats. He said that at one time there was a team in that management thought was clocking the wheel or looking for a bias. To screw with them, he said that they'd switch wheels between different tables on graveyard just in case they were on to something. I guess they ultimately got tired or were unable to detect a bias so they left before they were tossed. I guess it could happen.

    I've also heard stories about dealer muscle memory or somethingnsimilar where they spin at the same speed and land in a similar sector although I never seen it firsthand.

    I'm skeptical that you can play a straight game at an advantage. With dealer cooperation, that may be a different story.

    Dan
     
  13. atom

    atom High-Roller

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    This is probably why Bob Dancer writes books, teaches classes, etc. :) That said, I am grateful to Bob Dancer and others for paving the way. It's a lot easier to learn a strategy than to develop one, and by learning VP strategy I improve my odds. I wouldn't try to make a living at it, but if I can loose a little less over the long term while on vacation, having free drinks and (sometimes) staying in free rooms, that makes me happy.
     
  14. seviay

    seviay High-Roller

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    I'll take "things that don't exist for $500, Alex"
     
  15. Auggie

    Auggie Dovahkiin

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    I think for this one you might need to link to where you read this, otherwise it really just sounds like a lame trolling attempt...
     
  16. NickyDim

    NickyDim VIP Whale

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    Yes it has a high 5.26% take on the game, but you need no experience, you need no expertise as every bet is exactly the same odds. If you look at the actual takes on the games in a casino's balance sheet, roulette comes up better than most for players. Why? Because all those odds you see for all those games are optimal play(like <2% on BJ, craps), and 98% of players do not play optimally, so they give up any 'better' odds than roulette because they don't know how to play perfectly. But the beauty of roulette is you play it optimally by just placing any chip any where (with the exception of 0,00,1,2,3 combo).

    The key to roulette is not trying to beat it. You are going to have waves of good runs and bad runs. You have to quit when you have a good run and not get greedy, and be able to walk away when there are bad runs. If you keep your winning runs to amounts of 5.26% greater than you losing runs, you can stay ahead. If you are spending more time than you need to at a roulette table then you will never beat the game. It's all about when to get up.
     
  17. tacallian

    tacallian Low-Roller

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    The required number of tracked spins to determine "wheel bias", or the tendency for the roulette wheel to favor particular numbers due to flaws in it's design and normal wear and tear is around 20K-30K. In the early days of computers there were a few people who determined you could track it and they did, to some reasonable profit.

    However it requires a great amount of exposure in the casino to get those numbers, assume they're from a particular wheel unless you can figure out a way to mark the wheel without being seen by the eye in the sky.

    And even then, the Casino has digital results recorded now for everything. I guarantee they can look up the exact spins, in what order and amount of time in between for a particular wheel on any particular day. To not record this (given the prolific digital displays) would be phenominally stupid.

    What this means is that the Casino already knows if a wheel has a bias, long before any player does. They will replace the ones that get too bad, and they will know if anyone is playing the bias for a long time.

    I have to be honest... as a bit of a math and computer nerd I would give a great deal to be able to be behind the scenes at a casino for a week.
     
  18. numeno

    numeno VIP Whale

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    In Vegas, sure, but I think you are putting a lot of faith in those 2 people in the back room dealing with security issues. I'm sure the casinos love that many people think they do preventive maintenance like this.

    Also if you are talking about recording things from that digital display. I've seen some casinos with that broken(the numbers show up, they are simply wrong) and the same issue is there 6 months later on my next trip.
     
  19. Kickin

    Kickin Flea

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    Nicky I agree with everything else you wrote in your post but this is not accurate. The actual take (i.e. hold) on roulette is significantly higher than it is on the other main table games. In fact its close to double the hold versus blackjack. You can see the statistics for Nevada casinos here:

    http://gaming.unlv.edu/reports/nv_table_hold.pdf

    By the way, this measure of take or hold is still not an accurate number. Its biased towards being understated for all games for a variety of reasons. But that's a topic for another thread.
     
  20. y2mulder

    y2mulder Low-Roller

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    OK, I will play devils advocate just to keep the thread moving.

    Many dealers claim to be able to "hit the same area" every spin, which is more bragging than anything. BUT, if you kept the spin slow (8-12 revs), and keep the wheel slow to minimize bouncing, you could target an area. But that would also require the dealer to look in the wheel as they spun (Against casino policy), and be able to repeat the speed.

    Bottom line, I TELL YOU I am going to hit Red 23, there is a 1/12 chance I either hit the number, or its neighbor by sheer accident. Not exactly splitting the atom there.
     
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