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Table Games Were these rules made up by the Floor Manager?

Discussion in 'Table Games' started by Aces and Eights, Feb 17, 2016.

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  1. Aces and Eights

    Aces and Eights VIP Whale

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    One time when I was at Bellagio, the hole-card viewer was not working properly, and the dealer exposed the hole-card which was a ten-value card to an up-card that was a ten. So the dealer exposed a 20. One of the players had a 16 which she wanted to surrender. But the floor manager said since the hole card was exposed, she couldn't surrender any more. She could only stay or hit. I told the floor manager that the rules couldn't be changed because of an error by the casino, but it could be considered a mis-deal. He didn't give that option. He later said that he called upstairs and was told he was right. She ended up taking and busting. The rest of us lost, but we would have lost regardless of whether we saw the hole-card. But I think it was unfair to the player that wanted to surrender but couldn't due to a malfunction in a casino gaming device. I get the feeling the floor manager didn't make the call but wanted to assure us he was right.

    It actually happened again after the dealer changed, because they didn't tell the new dealer of the defective viewer. But that time it didn't matter. Even though we played our hands out, the dealer's hole card gave her a 21 from the beginning so all of us would have lost anyway.
     
  2. notfromconcentrate

    notfromconcentrate Low-Roller

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    Sounds made up to me. The way I understand the rules is that the dealer only needs to check for the hole card to be an A in case of T showing, or T in case of A showing - and that there isn't a requirement to use the prism device. Of course, checking it the old fashioned way is an easy way for cheats to have an edge (remember that morse code scene from Casino (1995)?)... but that's the casino's loss for choosing to keep a defective table open.
     
  3. dankyone

    dankyone VIP Whale

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    Ordinarily, the player may only surrender before the dealer flips his hole card. However, this was not an ordinary circumstance--it was a misdeal. I am very surprised to hear this happened at Bellagio since I have always seen them do the most player friendly thing possible in case of any irregularity in the game. I would have been less surprised to hear the B allowed all the players to pull their bets back if they wanted to. Now most casinos/pit bosses are not afraid to make up rules on the fly, I'm just surprised Bellagio didn't resolve this differently.
     
  4. UKFanatic

    UKFanatic The Arbiter of Taste Caviar Kid

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    I gotta admit, I would have laughed if the player stood on her 16, lol.

    I had that happen once at Aria and I was told I could hit or stand. But it was a DD table, so surrender was not an option.
     
  5. sabre

    sabre Low-Roller

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    I'd have asked to speak with the gaming commission, and would have refused to act until I did.
     
  6. Chuck2009x

    Chuck2009x VIP Whale

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    Which happened first, exposing the hole card, or the surrender?

    If she saw the hole card first, she has nothing to complain about. If she asked to surrender before she saw the hole card, then the box should have let her.
     
  7. RockyBalboa

    RockyBalboa VIP Whale

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    I think it should've been a mis-deal.

    Had a similar thing happen not too long ago. It wasn't defective but for some reason it didn't show when the dealer checked. He had a ten up and we all played our hands. I turned s shit hand into a 20 and the dealer flips over his card and it's an ace. 21.

    We all protested and the floor called a mis-deal.
     
  8. Aces and Eights

    Aces and Eights VIP Whale

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    Regardless of whether she saw the card or not, it was not her fault that the card was exposed, and the correct play according to basic strategy is to surrender. She always plays basic strategy and should be allowed to do so when she did nothing wrong. So yes, her decision to surrender was already made before she saw the hole-card. I think the floor manager has a little discretion in favoring the player in particular cases like these. At the very least, he could have called a mis-deal.

    If the floor manager allowed us to play out the game with the original rules, they would have made $50 instead of $100 because we would have all surrendered, and none of us would have a sour taste in our mouth. So it would have been a win-win. Now we don't gamble at Bellagio any more and play less at M-Life in general. Since we have a choice, we go to one of many other casinos to play instead.

    In most casinos, I have seen the floor manager make up casino error in favor of the player as others have mentioned. The advantage they get for good customer relation outweighs the $100 in bets on the table for that game.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2016
  9. UKFanatic

    UKFanatic The Arbiter of Taste Caviar Kid

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    In that case, you would still be sitting there. I'm fairly certain the GC does not have a hotline or investigators on standby. I knew a buddy that filed a complaint with the GC years ago (regarding a sports bet) and it was an incredibly slow process
     
  10. MsNVegas

    MsNVegas Low-Roller

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    I'm not a table player, but this would've pissed me off!
     
  11. Aces and Eights

    Aces and Eights VIP Whale

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    I'm assuming you would be pissed off at the floor manager because he has the discretion of accepting her surrender or calling a mis-deal. The mis-deal actually falls in line with every casino's rules, "Mis-deal voids all play," which goes for all table games and machines.
     
  12. Shades

    Shades Tourist

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    Actually I tried the dealing thing when we first got tables in our casino. I made the same mistake and just like in the story by the OP I had a 20. The 5 people that were at the table were given the same option they could take a hit or stay. They all took a hit and all lost the hand. I felt horrible about what happened which only made me more nervous. I lasted just a few more days as a dealer and then I hightailed it back to the safety of my IT world.

    :cool:
     
  13. Aces and Eights

    Aces and Eights VIP Whale

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    If surrender was never allowed in the first place, you actually helped the table even though they lost. If the players didn't have a 15 or 16, you helped the table because basic strategy is to only surrender on a 9-6, 10-5, 9-7, or 10-6 against a dealer 10-value up-card.
     
  14. bubbakitty

    bubbakitty native Texan; born and bred.

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    Why would they not just close the table and move everyone elsewhere? This seems silly. Isn't it just a lighted mirror?
     
    1st Super Bowl DT...Panthers / Browns no doubt
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  15. Aces and Eights

    Aces and Eights VIP Whale

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    I don't remember if it was that type or the one where you push a button, but they just continued where the dealer had to lift the card to take a peak.
     
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